Witness Lee Altered Watchman Nee's Writings: Rapture, Resurrection and Manchild
John Pester of the lsm/lc Misrepresents Nee's Writings
Watchman Nee states on page 84 of Come, Lord Jesus (CFP), referring to the "great multitude" (Rev. 7.9), these groups "include the majority of the redeemed of God; that is, consists of those in the first rapture, plus that great number who are raised from the dead, together with the relatively smaller number of those who yet remain alive on earth and are changed." This suggests that since Watchman Nee did not associate raising from the dead with first rapture, he may not have believed even the martyrs were resurrected at this time, let alone the rest of the overcomers resting in Hades.
Watchman Nee writes - H. Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living "shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep" -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, And the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.
John Pester - Concerning H. The content of Section H, on page 289 of the CFP printing of the King and the Kingdom of Heaven, has been substantially edited and REDUCED from what Nee originally published in Notes on Scriptural Messages. Here are the two sentences on 289, "Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says "shall in no wise", how then can rapture take place twice?" The editorial division of Nee's thought into two sentences can convey the impression that Nee agrees with the first sentence.
This same section in The Collected Works of Watchman Nee (LSM), Vol. 19, p. 567, more clearly demonstrates that Nee is not presenting his own argument, but rather the argument of those who would try to use 1 Thes. 4:15 to disprove the truth of partial rapture: "If one group of people will be raptured before the tribulation, whereas most of the people will be raptured at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (at which time the dead will be resurrected), does this not mean that those who are living will precede those who have fallen asleep? As it presented here, it is more clearly understood that Nee is conveying the argument of those who are opposed to partial rapture.
Troy - Clearly, Watchman Nee believes there is a resurrection at the 7th trumpet (obviously) and that resurrection takes place from the dead (though we all receive resurrected bodies). Therefore, simply, since rapture follows resurrection, all that remains to know is if there is a first rapture (Nee is not discussing resurrection from the dead at 1st rapture at all - a separate issue). There is not an issue whether Watchman Nee agrees with the first sentence that starts with “Now” as Local LSM Church tries to suggest. Watchman Nee (CF) is simply stating a fact, that if there is a first rapture, it will have to proceed the resurrection of the dead at the 7th trumpet. Watchman Nee does not usually ask questions as presented by LSM here, “….does this not mean…?” Nee normally states complicated matters like this as a statement of fact (if then, but statements) to get the facts straight in drawing proper conclusions; that is why the CFP version is clearer and less wordy. You will note that in comparing various books there is usually 30 to 70 more pages of wordiness per book in the LSM versions. Obviously LSM likes to add in their own thoughts to Watchman Nee’s words.
Watchman Nee is saying, “if there is a first rapture, it has to take place before the resurrection of the dead” at 7th trumpet for that is the condition required. This is why Watchman Nee said, “The dead are resurrected at the 7th trumpet and not before; and so timewise, rapture occurs after Tribulation”. Watchman Nee has shown that there is a group alive that are raptured after those who are resurrected, and there is a group that is raptured before 7th trumpet at 1st rapture, raptured alive, not resurrected. There is only one resurrection. Still no mention is made of resurrection at 1st rapture taught by Leeism. Only the resurrection at 7th trumpet is mentioned by Watchman Nee. The Local LSM Church is wrong here to suggest that Watchman Nee believed there was two resurrections. He believed there were two raptures. This is shown when Watchman Nee writes in the first sentence, “The dead are resurrected at the 7th trumpet”. This confirms what Watchman Nee says in Come, Lord Jesus (CFP), when he writes on page 78, “….at the first rapture there is no resurrection”.
However, he does allow for the possibility that the martyrs “under the altar” at the fifth seal will be resurrected before the Tribulation and before the sixth seal as he suggests “wait ye a little while” may indicate that the martyrs will be raptured, as he further states on page 78 “they are now resurrected” at the point of the fifth seal, or shortly thereafter, as he explains how the martyrs do not represent an altar of incense of sin offering, but that of a burnt offering, as it says in 6.10 “avenge our blood” (cf. Psalm 9.12). He clearly does not presume anything past this point, whereas LSM has all overcomers of past generations raptured at 1st rapture. Therefore, we observe that there is more humility in Watchman Nee’s assessment as it differs from that of Witness Lee’s since he only states this, “they are now resurrected”, in one paragraph in his entire writings. Surely we can leave the possibility open that the martyrs may or may not be raptured at the 5th seal, but if they are, surely they are deserving in avenging their blood. This is a much different flavor than what LSM believes that all overcomers are raptured at 1st rapture. I think there is nothing wrong with overcomers waiting to be resurrected at 7th trumpet, after all their blood is not being avenged. The blood of the martyrs in Christ are being avenged.
LSM people will try to convince you that resurrection is the same thing as rapture so that all the dead overcomers are raptured at first rapture instead of a select group (martyrs, living overcomers, and 144,000 resting and living). God wants it this way. More detail on why is given on the main partial rapture page. Then why did God use two different words, resurrection or rapture? It is because rapture can occur without resurrection, but rapture always occurs with resurrection as it will apply at the consummation of this age. When God resurrects He intends to rapture. But some may never see death, so they need not be resurrected. This matter of a resurrected body to convince people that rapture is the same thing is resurrection is not right. We all have new spiritual bodies given in parousia to be raptured and resurrected for most of us see hades. It is only a very few that are raptured alive like Enoch or Elijah or those at the first rapture. Watchman Nee agrees, "A 'garner' is not built in the field; it usually is located near the house. The field represents the world. Harvest in the Scriptures almost always points to rapture OR sometimes resurrection" (King and the Kingdom of Heaven). See how Nee also believed that rapture and resurrection should not be confused?
John Pester - Strictly speaking, the Bible references the man-child only at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, but the activity of the man-child, contesting satan, is certainly continued at the end of the great tribulation when Christ and His army descend to defeat Antichrist at Armeggedon (This army will consist of the man-child and the believers who were martyred during the great tribution). In verse 12.6, the man-child is raptured at the beginning of the Great Tribulation.
In verse 7, this rapture precipitates a war in heaven, In verse 9 the Devil is "cast to the earth" which precipitates his persecution of the woman and the rest of her seed during the 3.5 years of the Great Trib. In verse 10, a voice in heaven, however, says, "NOW...the accuser of our brothers has been cast down" in verse 12, The overcomers who "loved not their soul-life even unto DEATH" are mentioned in the same speaking from heaven that occurs immediately after Satan is cast down at the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Who are these dead overcomers? And if there are dead overcomers who are praised at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, will they not need to be resurrected in order to be caught up to God and to His throne (v. 5).
Troy – Revelation 7 talks about the saints to the throne generally, not exclusively. Nor does it talk of the scene of eternal blessing. Therefore, Nee writes on page 85 of Come, Lord Jesus ”we must not conclude that what is given here is indicative of the rapture of the whole church once and for all; for nothing is said as to how this vast multitude got here, it only states that they are here” (CFP). This points out to the first place the church can begin to be raptured (alive) at first rapture, just before the tribulation starts, and that is why it is placed after all the events of chapter 6 of the past 20 centuries. Similarly, the man-child is presented this same way, even unto death, including all overcomers that are within the woman. The woman are the people whom God has chosen from the many from each dispensation, the many being all people. The man-child goes further and includes all those overcomers from past centuries from 3 groups: (1) those raptured alive at 1st rapture, (2) those were martyred in the past 20 centuries, (3) those martyrd in Great Tribulation, (4) overcomers not martyrs in past 20 centuries, (5) overcomers not martyrd during Great Tribulation, and (6) Saints of the Most High from the OT era. These 6 groups comprise the 1st resurrection.
But only living overcomers of the man-child are raptured alive with newly clothed transubstantiated bodies before the throne at 1st rapture, never having to enter (Paradise??) Hades, truly ready like an Enoch or an Elijah to be raptured alive (note, Enoch and Elijah are not raptured to the throne, though they are raptured; they will return as the two witnesses, then to die and be resurrected).
A war precipitates in heaven which casts down the dragon. This war takes place between the man-child and Satan, and it takes place over the first three and a half years of Tribulation. What is key to recognize is it only includes those who are living raptured overcomers. The rest of the man-child still has not been clothed with new spiritual bodies since the resurrection has not yet taken place since there is only one resurrection. We need to give some respect to the importance God places on the resurrection at the last trumpet. So to answer the question by LSM put before us, our answer is plain, that, yes, the dead overcomers who are praised are praised, though this does not necessitate that they be resurrected before the one and only resurrection at 7th trumpet. Likewise, these dead overcomers who loved their lives not even unto death need not be legalized into the thought presented by LSM that all overcomers must be resurrected at 1st rapture, for they encompass dead overcomers who loved not their lives not only in the past centuries but in the Tribulation also, and even though they loved their lives even unto death many if most were not martyrd for Christ and died of natural old age causes instead. Just because Chapter 12 is in the same place as Satan being cast down, we should not make the same leap that LSM is willing to make just because these overcomers are willing to die. Let us remain humble on such a matter and not take on a position to glorify an organization called Living Stream Ministry or the shallow teachings of Witness Lee.
Nevertheless, Watchman Nee aptly does point out that there is a possibility for just the martyrs to be resurrected at 1st rapture, which would seem reasonable as the Scriptures state they are to “wait a little while” longer, implying that there is more than one rapture, and possibly resurrection of just the martyrd at 1st rapture along with the living overcomers at the 5th seal. You do not want to be in the Local Church in their jezebel pride thinking all overcomers will be raptured at 1st rapture, especially those members of their Local Church.
The reason why it is called split rapture or partial rapture is because the rapture itself is split and partial, not the resurrection. However as we all know the LSM corporation will try to convince you that there is no real difference between the rapture and resurrection. However, the reason why there is two words, rapture and resurrection, is because they are not the same thing, and because they need not happen together. There is something special about 1st rapture that one can be received into heaven because they are ready to be received, and never had to go down to Hades.
Lately, additionally I have been tending towards more in Watchman Nee's way of thinking that Paradise is not Hades at all as Witness Lee teaches. I had come to this conclusion by the way Watchman Nee talks about Paradise and the thief in his book, Full of Grace and Truth, Volume One (CFP) where in each instance he mentions Paradise with examples in the Scriptures, he is talking about it in the context as being heaven. I can not say that Paradise is Hades anymore, so that when Jesus says to the thief I shall see you this day, it is true, that in heaven He shall see the thief this day.
And the only way I know how to explain it is to say that time stands still so that there is no real differentiation of a day from the time one goes down into Hades to the time of resurrection from Hades at 7th trumpet. In this way I no longer think of Hades as Paradise, though Hades does still remain as Abraham's bosom it in no way can be considered Paradise. This gives me peace to think of it this way, for it rebukes the teaching of LSM that Paradise is Hades in an article of theirs I read, and it also lets me accept the truth that Paradise is in heaven. Similarly, I get to reject the teaching also that we all go straight to heaven upon our death, also, taught by Pentecostals, the great harlot.
Troy Brooks