"Bill the Cat" Tries to Access the Latent Power of His Soul
Bill the Cat, (from theologyweb),
In each instance you sin bearing false witness and accuse Watchman Nee of heresies when you said “let’s count the heresies”. Let’s go over them point by point, regarding your misreading of Watchman Nee’s, Latent Power of the Soul (CFP), and we shall discover you hold within yourself heresies not of God.
Item One
Bill, you stated, “1. Adam could become like God because that ability was in him”. My response was, “1. Adam can't be like God, for only God is God.” And, as shown below, Nee writes as well, “likeness” (Gen. 1.26) is to “outward appearance” as “image” is to “moral or spiritual similarity”. Adam was made in God’s image after the likeness of God. This is an accomplished fact. God wanted Adam to be like Him, but man fell. Hence, the redemptive design is in place to restore those back to Him who choose His life whom He graces with eternal life. Watchman Nee defines the terms, but Bill, you accuse falsely like Satan the false accuser. Make note, the previous paragraphs to this section that Nee writes, speak of how Adam had great responsibility before the fall, which was then lost. He lost that ability, thus God brings about the redemption to restore what God longs for to see in man. A mistake you may possibly be making Bill, speaking in the present, in your short few words, by misreading, is that you say Adam could become like God now, rather than before the fall. This is true before the fall, but not after the fall. After the fall, man now needs God’s redemptive plan and mercy to become sinless. Nee writes,
We are not, by our probing in this fashion, being inordinately curious; we only desire to know what God actually gave to Adam. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Gen. 1.26). The words “image” and “likeness” may seem to be alike in meaning and may therefore appear repetitious. But in Hebrew the word “image” does not point to physical likeness, rather it denotes moral or spiritual similarity. Someone has put it as: “change into likeness”; that is, “to be conformed to a likeness”. The purpose in God creating man is for man to be transformed according to His image. God wanted Adam to be like Him. The devil said, “Ye shall be as God.” But God’s original intention was that Adam should be transformed to become like Him.
From this we conclude that before the fall Adam had in him the power to become like God. He possessed a hidden ability which made it possible for him to become like God. He was already like Him in outward appearance, but he was ordained by God to become like Him morally (I use the word “morally” to indicate that which is above the material, not what merely points to man’s good behavior). Thus are we shown how much loss mankind has suffered through the fall. The magnitude of the damage is probably beyond our imagination.
Item Two
Bill, you overassumed, “2. God had some form of physical body because Adam
looked like Him in the garden”. My response was, “2. God doesn't have some
physical body or that he looked like him in the garden.” Your error here Bill is
to assume a physical body for God, when Nee does not say that in the above two
paragraphs. Nee said “outward appearance”, that is like Christ was when He broke
into creation as the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Why does this offend you
so? Do you see your approach is to overassume what one says, and then draw an
erroneous conclusion?
Item Three
Bill, you misinterpreted, “3. Adam's flesh came into existance as a result of
the fall, not God forming it”. My response was, “3. The flesh, being the sin of
the body and self of the soul, did come about because of the fall. To deny
otherwise is yourself to accept your sin sinfully. All men are born into sin.
The Bible uses the term flesh in different ways: soft part and all that comes
from the unregenerated man, and of the old man.” Nee even goes into details
about the different uses of the term, “flesh” in The Spiritual Man:
The Flesh and Salvation (Part 2, Chapter 1, CFP). A consequence of your
misreading is to engender your flesh, delve into the “latent” power of your
soul, instead of dying on the cross with Christ. Nee writes fully,
Adam is a soul. His spirit and body are joined in his soul. That astonishing power which we have just mentioned is present in Adam’s soul. In other words, the living soul, which is the result of the coming together of the spirit and the body, possesses unthinkable supernatural power. At the fall, though, the power which distinguishes Adam from us is lost. Yet this does not mean there is no longer such power; it only denotes that though this ability is still in man, it is nonetheless “frozen” or immobilized. According to Genesis 6, after the fall man becomes flesh. The flesh envelops the whole being and subjugates him. Man was originally a living soul; now, having fallen, he becomes flesh. His soul had been meant to submit to the spirit’s control; now it is subject to the dominion of the flesh. Hence the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh” (Gen. 6.3). When God here mentioned man, He called him flesh, for in His eyes that was now what he was. Consequently it is recorded in the Bible that “all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth” (Gen. 6.12); and again, “upon the flesh of man shall it (the holy anointing oil, representing in type the Holy Spirit) not be poured” (Ex. 30.32); and further, “by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight” (Rom. 3.20).
Why do I dwell at some length on this? In Revelation 18 things are mentioned which shall come to pass in the last days. I indicated at the very beginning how man’s soul will become a commodity in Babylon—that which can be sold and bought. But why is man’s soul treated as a commodity? Because Satan and his puppet the Antichrist wish to use the human soul as an instrument for their activities at the end of this age. When Adam fell in the garden of Eden his power was immobilized. He had not lost this power altogether, only it was nowburied within him. He had become flesh, and his flesh now enclosed tightly this marvelous power within it. Generation has succeeded generation with the result that this primordial ability of Adam has become a “latent” force in his descendants. It has turned to become a kind of “hidden” power. It is not lost to man, it is simply bound up by the flesh.
Today in each and every person who lives on earth lies this Adamic power, though it is confined in him and is not able to freely express itself. Yet such power is in every man’s soul just as it was in Adam’s soul at the beginning. Since today’s soul is under siege by the flesh, this power is likewise confined by the flesh. The work of the devil nowadays is to stir up man’s soul and to release this latent power within it as a deception for spiritual power. The reason for my mentioning these things is to warn ourselves of the special relationship between man’s soul and Satan in the last days.
We have already seen how Adam possessed special supernatural ability, though in actuality what he had was not at all special or supernatural, however much it may appear that way to us today. Before his fall Adam could quite naturally exercise this ability with ease, since it was embodied in his soul. But after his fall, this power of his was interned by his body. Formerly the body was a help to Adam’s powerful soul; now the soul had fallen, and his power was circumscribed by the shell of the flesh. Satan, however, attempts to break open this fleshly shell and to release the power dormant in man’s soul in order to gain control over man. Many do not understand this strategy, being deceived into accepting it as of God.
Item Four
Bill, you write, “4. You should never pray to God in the privacy of your room”. My response was, “4. You can pray anywhere to God.” Have you never had the closed-in experience whereby you pray in your room only, box yourself in, and your prayer becomes delusional? I hope not. But this is the problem with some who shut themselves in with their prayers in their room, and become too narrow minded as they pray. This does not have to do with demanding no prayer in the privacy of a room, but the proper place towards where the prayer belongs, as Nee states, “prayers to heaven”; so Bill, do you see how you sin bearing false witness unethically, given what Watchman Nee said here? Your action was premeditated for you had read this paragraph knowing full well the meaning of the paragraph, as Nee writes,
The prayers in the Bible are intelligent and not silly. When the Lord Jesus teaches us to pray, His first words are: “Our Father who art in heaven”. He teaches us to pray to our Father in heaven, but we Christians often pray to the God in our room. Our prayer should be offered to the heavenly Father for Him to hear. God wants us to send our prayers to heaven by faith, regardless if our feeling be good or bad, or even if there be no feeling. If you pray to, and expect to be heard by, the God in your room, I am afraid you will receive many strange feelings and miraculous experiences and visions from the God in your room. These are given to you by Satan, and whatever you receive from Satan belongs either to consciousness or sub-consciousness.
Item Five
Bill, you sinned again, when you said, “5. You should not pray for others because it opresses them”. My response was, “You can pray for others and it doesn't oppress them.” Coercing someone is not righteous, nor is it holy. Nee does not say not to use intercessory prayer (for he speaks of this extensively), but rather, do not pray improperly in the wrong direction at the person, rather than for the person. Praying at someone, comes from the “desire and wish” of self in “psychic” prayer, without the spirit. Bill your false works of misreading, are seemingly on purpose to deceive, rather than an honest mistake. If it was an honest mistake in your reading, you would have repented by now. Nee writes, in agreement,
(second paragraph of Prayer) Someone may not pray to the God in his room. He may direct his prayers instead towards the person for whom he prays. This too is most dangerous. Suppose you have a friend who is over two thousand miles away from you. You pray for him, asking God, as the case might be, to either revive him in the Word or to save him. Instead of directing your prayer towards God, you concentrate on your thought, your expectation, and your wish and send them out to your friend as a force. Your prayer is like a bow which shoots your thought, desire and wish as arrows towards your friend. He will be so oppressed by this force that he will do exactly what you have asked for. You may think your prayer is answered. But let me tell you, it is not God who answers your prayer, for you have not prayed to Him. It is merely an answer to a prayer which you directed towards your friend.
(third, fourth, and fifth paragraph of Prayer) Someone claims his prayer is answered because, says he, “I have piled prayers on my friend.” Indeed, for you prayed towards him, not towards God. Your prayer is answered, but not by God. Even though you do not know hypnosis, what you have secretly done has fulfilled the law of hypnotism. You have released your psychic force to perform this act.
Why is this so? Because you have not prayed to the God in heaven; instead your prayers are projected towards, piled upon, and laid seige to, the person for whom you pray. In appearance you are praying, but in actuality you are oppressing that person with your psychic power. If you use your soul force in praying for a certain one—say you pray that he should be at least disciplined if not punished—the prayer of your soul force will dart out at him and he will accordingly be sick. This is a fixed principle of the soul. It is as sure as the fact that a person will be scorched if he thrusts his finger into fire.
For this reason, we should not pray a prayer that asks that a person be punished if he does not do what is expected of him. Such prayer will cause him to suffer, and thus make the one who prayed such a prayer the instigator of his woe. If we pray, we should pray to God and not towards man. I personally have experienced the ill-effect of such prayer. Several years ago I was sick for over a year. This was due to the prayers of five or six persons being piled upon me. The more they prayed, the weaker I became. Finally I discovered the cause. I began to resist such prayers, asking God to disengage me from what they had prayed for. And so I got well. In this connection, let me quote from a letter written by a believer:
I have just come through a terrible onslaught of the enemy. Hemorrhage, heart affection, panting and exhaustion. My whole body is in a state of collapse. It suddenly burst upon me while at prayer to pray against all psychic power exercised upon me by (psychic) ‘prayer’. By faith in the power of the Blood of Christ, I cut myself off from it, and the result was remarkable. Instantly my breathing became normal, the hemorrhage stopped, exhaustion vanished, all pain fled, and life came back into my body. I have been refreshed and invigorated ever since. God let me know in confirmation of this deliverance, that my condition was the effect of a group of deceived souls, who are in opposition to me, ‘praying’ about me! God had used me to the deliverance of two of them, but the rest are in an awful pit .... *
*Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis, Soul and Spirit. Poole, Dorset, England, Overcomer Literature Trust, 1968?, p.58. Also available in the United States from Christian Literature Crusade, Fort Washington, Pa.
Item Six
Finally, Bill Nat, may you begin to see your other 5 mistakes in addition to the 6th error, when you wrote, “(not quoted, but from ch.2) you should not pray for the sick because it will make them get worse”. In a half-apology you wrote, “I will take back the statement for #6 as I misread the text, however the bottom line is still the same, prayer FOR someone is forbidden”. In like manner, where you misread chapter 2, as you admit, on point #6, I trust you will be able to see how you misread the other parts of chapter 2 as well as chapter 1, in the other 5 points where you misread and sinned bearing false witness. Do see the evil in your words for you accused Nee falsely, when you said you “can see the evil in Nee's words”. Your errors are obvious, yet you say, “being deluded by the heresies of Watchman Nee”. Shame on you, for even after this proof, you still can not repent.
The fruit of the Spirit does not bear false witness as you have done, so your self-declaration is considered of no account: “Sorry, but I am commanded by Scripture to expose false teachings, as I have done here.” Your inveterate obstinacy is noted and your belligerence exceedingly great. One is reminded of the tares and the swine in the kingdom of heaven that are unregenerated (Matt. 7; 13). They profess to the ends of the earth, as do you, when you said, “Yes, and that conclusion is that the discernment of false doctrine is sorely lacking in you. Repent and come clean”. A person will come back to help you from time to time Bill despite your delusion. You may shut them out, ban them, or apply whatever other means to shut your mind down to the truth, but the fact remains, you did not repent. You will not, because there is something blocking your heart not of God.
For those that actually read this piece, it clearly shows how the unregenerated behave. They are so off, you can sense in your spirit, without even knowing all the details, something is wrong. What you have received in your spirit can be translated into your understanding with words to stand up for the truth against the swine. The swine are those who have the appearance of being saved on the outside with cloven hooves, but inside, they are dirty, not chewing their cud: unsaved. What can one say, except to wipe the dust off your feet.
You may want to convince such a person with many verses but if a person doesn’t want to listen after reading only a few passages then why waste your time? Did the Messiah waste his time in such a way? I’ve said it many times before and I’ll say it many more times, people believe what they want to believe. Only the few who love true honest reason will listen to Truth.
Love, in Christ,
Troy
Follow-up
Discussion (Aug. 6/05)
Bill writes, “If you can quote one verse where God wanted Adam to be like Him, I'm all ears.” This verse was already given. See Gen. 1.26,27. And see the garden seen where God allowed Adam to eat of the tree of life. Bill you write, “Nee believed, as Satan tempted, that Adam could become like God before Adam sinned. That is a heresy and its roots are with Satan.” You are sinning bearing false witness against God’s Word, since Adam was made in God’s image and God desired Adam in being in His image to grow into His moral likeness. This is the meaning to be “like”.
My purpose in returning to help you despite your shutting your mind down, and your blaming me for doing so, is the passivity which you put yourself under, like one who shoves their head under a rug.
Bill, you sin bearing false witness, saying “Nee believed, as Satan tempted, that Adam could become like God before Adam sinned. That is a heresy and its roots are with Satan.” This is true, God wants to walk with man made in His image. Why do you call God a liar? This does not mean Nee believed man is to be God, for if that were true, then Nee would not have said, “The devil said, ‘Ye shall be as God.’ But God’s original intention was that Adam should be transformed to become like Him.” You can’t have it both ways. You can’t agree with Nee, and then accuse him. Therefore, underneath, there is something else that Nee believes that convicts you, which causes you to sin this sin here, of bearing false witness.
Bill, you write, “We will never truly be like Him other than immortal”. Being immortal, those saved in Him, will be not just immortal, but in His image morally and spiritually, as well as outwardly in appearance in likeness with a spiritual body as Christ put on after He was raised from the dead. It is true we are made in God’s image. See 1 Cor. 15.
Let me say, I am convinced you are unregenerated Bill, for observe your hostility, while Watchman Nee made no mistake in these words, “Nee's lunacy”. Your reviling is noted and this is how you treat the uttermost spiritual Christians. Bill, you write, “Adam had nothing ‘hidden’ in Him. He was innocent in the Garden, like God only in immortality.” Of course Adam has within Him hidden ability, since Adam is made in God’s image with such ability, before the fall. God is not innocent as you say, He is all-knowing. Adam was innocent though, but this does not mean he was not made in God’s image with this hidden ability for it was given to the man freely by God to be like Him outwardly and inwardly.
You have no faith Bill, for you say, “But Adam was never ‘like’ God, nor would he ever have been”, yet the word of God is clear, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Gen. 1.26). Your bad reasoning continues Bill, “God is uncreated, and thus, Adam, nor us, could ever truly be ‘like Him’”. Then you deny God’s word in Gen. 1.26, “after our likeness”. Truly, those whom are saved will truly be like Him in the new city and the new earth. Your false teachings are wrong, and people can see this.
Bill, you write, “God is a Spirit and thus has no ‘outward appearance’ so unless you want to backpedal some more, you are stuck with God having an outward form in order to appear.” God is not one Person the Spirit, God is three Persons: a Trinity. God is spirit whom is 3 Persons, God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit. Be careful of the false teaching of modalism with your words. Our being made in the “likeness” of God is outward appearance. This does not mean physical, but outward in manifestation in our being. That is why when Christ came in the “likeness” of flesh, He matched Himself perfectly, so we know that we are made in His likeness, and we will receive the same spiritual body He received when He was resurrected. Have you no faith? Sinning by bearing false witness is a vile sin.
Bill you write, “Did that make any sense to anyone else?” in response to what I wrote, “Nee said ‘outward appearance’, that is like Christ was when He broke into creation as the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” Why is it so hard for you to understand that Christ is the fullness of the Godhead bodily when He was in creation? And that we are made in His “likeness” to receive the same spiritual body He received when He was raised?
Bill, you write, “You sound like a Mormon here... For God to have an ‘outward appearance’ and for Adam to resemble it, it relegates God to a body that looks like the formed clay that Adam's flesh was made of. Take the blinders off for one minute and see that I speak truth.” Not at all, this just your reading into God’s word that which is not there when God uses the word “likeness”. Christ did come in the “likeness” of flesh, but “outward appearance” in “likeness” means that when Christ came in the flesh He was the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When we are in the flesh, we too are in the likeness of God, but not God. Just as Christ was raised with a spiritual body, in like manner, we too will be raised with the same. Mormons say God is gods. They are of another faith, so why sin bearing false witness? Remember, self-declarations don’t count. Don’t be belligerent.
Bill you write, “My soul has no latent power. It is at the mercy of the Creator. Nee's fascination with this unbiblical ‘soul force is garbage.” Nee does not have a fascination with the soul force, but he warns against it. That is the point of Latent Power of the Soul. Of course your soul has latent power, for the power it has was given before the foundations of the world, to have great responsibility over creation, but because man fell, such responsible turned into latent power that many use for “soul force” against God’s will, and not walking after the spirit. These sins of men trying to utilize such power is garbage, yet your denying such spiritism and living in the soulical, bypassing your inner man’s spirit to receive God’s leading therein, is to cause you to give into the very thing you are being warned against not to do. If your soul was at the mercy of the creator, you would not teach such false teachings and sin the sin of bearing false witness so virulently.
One needs to ask the question, why so virulent in your hostility sinning bearing false witness if you “died on the cross with Christ on Sept 1 1989. For you to say otherwise is to put yourself in Christ's place and judge me as unsaved.” There are two possibilities. Either you are just a fleshly carnal Christian hostile to those in God’s own house, or in fact you are a tare unsaved in the kingdom. I have seen nothing in your words to indicate that you are a Christian, for all your words are inveterate lies, reviling spiritual Christians. Freely ye received, freely give" (Matt. 10.8). The prophet is a watchman for my God over Israel, yet traps are laid in front of him wherever he goes. He faces hostility even in the house of God (Hosea 9.8). "He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward" (Matt. 10.41). "Here the Lord reveals the depth of the human heart. The decision one makes concerning a truth will be expressed by him before God. In receiving a prophet or righteous man, your spirit unites with the prophecy of the prophet or the morals of a righteous man. Hence you will receive a prophet's or a righteous man's reward. Whatever is done for the Lord will be rewarded" (KKH, W.Nee, p.110). Bill, I do not judge your unsalvation, I merely am aware of it as God reveals it. This does not make me Christ, it only shows my receive Christ’s leading in my spirit by the Holy Spirit in agreement with God’s word, which shows your fruit is not of God.
Bill, you err, when you said, “Now, Nee said that Adam was spirit and became flesh after the fall. If Nee meant ruled by those, then I would agree, but he didn't. He said Adam WAS spirit and BECAME flesh.” Nee did not say Adam was a spirit, but he does say angels are spirit. Rather, Nee says, man is spirit, soul and body (Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23). Adam has a physical body made from dust (Gen. 2.7). If Nee said Adam was a spirit, then he wouldn’t have said Adam is spirit, soul and physical body. You sin bearing false witness. This is evil. The “became flesh” is what flesh is, sin of the body and self of the soul, from the fall. Nee writes, “His spirit and body are joined in his soul” in Latent Power of the Soul. Furthemore, Nee writes “Man was originally a living soul; now, having fallen, he becomes flesh”. Pretty clear! All Christians know the flesh is that part from the unregenerated man.
Bill, our hostility and hatred rage, “What a kook. There is NO POWER in a human soul. That is UNBIBLICAL crap! The text from Nee shows just how far out this man was. It is a mix of new age garbage and pseudo-biblical language. Adam had no power before the fall.” This is not new age, nor is it pseudo. It is a fact man is made in God’s image, with a spirit, soul and body. Man had great responsibility before the fall over all the animals and all the plant life, but this power given to the became fallen by the choice the man made in His image to be disobedient. Your problem is you don’t know the Scriptures. You further state, “He was so powerless that he was deceived while under the possession of his supposed ‘supernatural abilities’. Good thing Satan acted quickly, or else Adam would have transformed into a God and been able to resist him.”
Nee writes, “We have already seen how Adam possessed special supernatural ability, though in actuality what he had was not at all special or supernatural, however much it may appear that way to us today” and further writes, “this ability is his responsibility in creation that was given to him”. Regarding, “Adam’s Brain Power and Memory”, “And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them; and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof” (Gen. 2.19). His point is, “My friends, is this not marvelous? Suppose you were to take a dictionary and to read all the names of the animals; would you not confess that you could neither recognize nor memorize them all? Yet Adam gave names to all the birds and animals. How intelligent he must have been! Those of us who are not so brilliant would no doubt soon give up the study of zoology once we saw our inability to memorize all the details. But Adam was not one who memorized these zoological names; he was the denominator, for he gave names to all. Hereby do we know how rich and perfect was Adam’s rational power.” Make no mistake, man was powerless when he was deceived by the fall while yet being made in God’s image with supernatural abilities, another way of saying, the man had great responsibility before creation.
Your hardened stance Bill is seen when you say, “Good thing Satan acted quickly, or else Adam would have transformed into a God and been able to resist him.” There is only one God, God of the Bible. So why sin bearing false witness that there can be two God’s? Shame on you! Your hostility towards spiritual Christians is your false fruit. Adam is already made in God’s image, but yet you praise Satan for acting quickly. It is a fat Adam was locked out of the garden, and was denied the tree of life at that time. Cain could not resist Satan, but Cain did resist, giving God right offering. Crazy stuff!
Bill, you write, “When I pray in my room alone, I know where my prayers are headed.” Sounds like you are self-exalting in your pronunciations about yourself as though you can not make a mistake in your prayers.
Your inability to understand Bill is seen, when you say, “What are you on about? Jesus frequently went alone to pray, and we emulate that in our ‘prayer closets’”. Can you see not only are you unable to understand the point, but you also in doing so, bear false witness? For I had said, “But this is the problem with some who shut themselves in with their prayers in their room, and become too narrow minded as they pray”. This is about being narrow minded, and praying in the wrong direction, and as a consequence, not to the Father in heaven, but dependency on a personal room (or other crutch), or in other cases, at people, rather than for people, selflessly. These word are plain, but they are not so for you. You need to sin bearing false witness and misreading profusely. How sad for you that this is the way you need to be. This is certainly no way for a Christian to act.
Your reviling Bill is obvious, “Anyone who prays...Dear Lord... prays to Heaven. Nee was trying to sound intelligent but ended up sounding ridiculous”. To assume that all prayers are correct prayers is to present yourself already into deception. Your pride is exceedingly great in your proclamation. I love the humility of Watchman Nee, when he brought this point up, about improper prayers. Nee is causing you to think and to discern, but you do the exact opposite, and revile instead. This shows you are of some other faith. Christians do not treat Christians this way. Indeed, your lack of discernment is “ridiculous” as though you just don’t care.
Bill, see the evil in your heart when you said, “No, I represented Nee accurately. He specifically said that prayers in your room are answered by Satan, which is a line of crap.” Of course Nee did not say this. Your selfish self-declarations are utterly evil. You do this on purpose, premeditated through your latent “soul power”. Nee writes, “The prayers in the Bible are intelligent and not silly”, but improper prayers are. Yet you accuse Nee of promoting answered prayers to Satan. Shame on you! Have you not conscience? Sinning bearing false witness is your favorite sin.
Bill, in hostility, you say, “There is no ‘God in our room’ other than ‘The Most High God’ or Satan. Anyone who directs their hearts to God in prayer is heard by God. Nee purposefully does not expound on what he means by praying to ‘the god in our room’." Notice your contradiction, for you say above, that all prayers are to God when you said “anyone who prays…prays to Heaven”, yet you say there is also Satan in your room, so then, how can all prayers always be too God? And, you say, you equate God as “God…’The Most High God’ or Satan”. How can you have two? Are you not able to make a mistake in prayer, for look at these words of yours that are wrong, also. Nee did expound on the meaning of improper praying in a closed-in fashion in our protected room. For Nee writes in Latent Power of the Soul, “Nevertheless, I do not approve of the shutting in of many people into a small room for several days’ fasting, praying, and chorus singing. Should people do such a thing, it will not take too long for them to have their brain dazed, the will to be turned passive, and their lips to be made to utter strange and incoherent sounds or tongues. And in this way shall their latent power be released.” Moreover, he distinguishes between praying to “Our Father who art in heaven” and dependency on a room for prayer. Do you see how, Bill, in your flesh you so quickly misread and thus bear false witness? Someone times you sin bear false witness on purpose. Other times, you do so premeditatedly, which is quite evil of you. Whether your error is due to overassuming or plotting your conniving words, they are both wrong. Also, Nee did not say “god in our room”. Watchman Nee said, “God in our room”. Again, do you see how you like to sin bearing false witness? This is done, premeditating on your part.
Bill, your lack of discernment is all too apparent, when you said, “How in the world do you pray "at someone"? More mumbo-jumbo...” Indeed, it is mumbo jumbo to you because you are without a spirit of wisdom and revelation. Even after Watchman Nee explained an excellent example to you, you still are in a state of confusion. Instead of being lazy, please read what Nee wrote, repeating again the same words,
(second paragraph of Prayer) Someone may not pray to the God in his room. He may
direct his prayers instead towards the person for whom he prays. This too is
most dangerous. Suppose you have a friend who is over two thousand miles away
from you. You pray for him, asking God, as the case might be, to either revive
him in the Word or to save him. Instead of directing your prayer towards God,
you concentrate on your thought, your expectation, and your wish and send them
out to your friend as a force. Your prayer is like a bow which shoots your
thought, desire and wish as arrows towards your friend. He will be so oppressed
by this force that he will do exactly what you have asked for. You may think
your prayer is answered. But let me tell you, it is not God who answers your
prayer, for you have not prayed to Him. It is merely an answer to a prayer which
you directed towards your friend.
(third, fourth, and fifth paragraph of Prayer) Someone claims his prayer is
answered because, says he, “I have piled prayers on my friend.” Indeed, for you
prayed towards him, not towards God. Your prayer is answered, but not by God.
Even though you do not know hypnosis, what you have secretly done has fulfilled
the law of hypnotism. You have released your psychic force to perform this act.
Why is this so? Because you have not prayed to the God in heaven; instead your
prayers are projected towards, piled upon, and laid seige to, the person for
whom you pray. In appearance you are praying, but in actuality you are
oppressing that person with your psychic power. If you use your soul force in
praying for a certain one—say you pray that he should be at least disciplined if
not punished—the prayer of your soul force will dart out at him and he will
accordingly be sick. This is a fixed principle of the soul. It is as sure as the
fact that a person will be scorched if he thrusts his finger into fire.
For this reason, we should not pray a prayer that asks that a person be punished
if he does not do what is expected of him. Such prayer will cause him to suffer,
and thus make the one who prayed such a prayer the instigator of his woe. If we
pray, we should pray to God and not towards man. I personally have experienced
the ill-effect of such prayer. Several years ago I was sick for over a year.
This was due to the prayers of five or six persons being piled upon me. The more
they prayed, the weaker I became. Finally I discovered the cause. I began to
resist such prayers, asking God to disengage me from what they had prayed for.
And so I got well. In this connection, let me quote from a letter written by a
believer:
I have just come through a terrible onslaught of the enemy. Hemorrhage, heart
affection, panting and exhaustion. My whole body is in a state of collapse. It
suddenly burst upon me while at prayer to pray against all psychic power
exercised upon me by (psychic) ‘prayer’. By faith in the power of the Blood of
Christ, I cut myself off from it, and the result was remarkable. Instantly my
breathing became normal, the hemorrhage stopped, exhaustion vanished, all pain
fled, and life came back into my body. I have been refreshed and invigorated
ever since. God let me know in confirmation of this deliverance, that my
condition was the effect of a group of deceived souls, who are in opposition to
me, ‘praying’ about me! God had used me to the deliverance of two of them, but
the rest are in an awful pit .... *
*Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis, Soul and Spirit. Poole, Dorset, England, Overcomer
Literature Trust, 1968?, p.58. Also available in the United States from
Christian Literature Crusade, Fort Washington, Pa.
Bill, why do you ask about psychic prayer, after reading Latent Power of the Soul, in which it is already explained? You wrote, “What the heck is ‘psychic’ prayer? More unbiblical talk...” Don’t accuse the Biblical word that this word expresses, if you are a Christian. On page 19 (pdf), Nee writes, “Modern parapsychology began with Franz Anton Mesmer. His first discovery, made in 1778, is now known as mesmerism (hypnotism as practised by Mesmer himself). His disciples excelled him through their own discoveries, just as the green which is derived from the blue excels the blue. Some of their experiments are almost unbelievable in results. Their method not unexpectedly is to discharge that hidden power within man’s soul. For example, in clairvoyance (the power to perceive things which are out of the natural range of human senses) or telepathy (communication by scientifically unknown or inexplicable means, as by the exercise of mystic power), people are able to see or hear or smell things thousands of miles away.”
“It has been said that mesmerism ‘is the rock from which all mental sciences . . . were hewn.’* Before the time of Mesmer psychic research was not an independent branch of science; it occupied only an insignificant place in natural science. But due to these astonishing discoveries, it has become a system of its own.”
* Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis, Soul and Spirit. Poole, Dorset, England, Overcomer Literature Trust, 1968?, p.67. Also available in the United States from Christian Literature Crusade, Fort Washington, Pa.
“Satan is now engaging this soul power to serve as a substitute for God’s gospel and its power. He tries to blind people’s hearts, through the marvel of soul force, into accepting a bloodless religion. He also uses the discoveries of psychic sciences to cast doubt upon the value of supernatural occurrences in Christianity—causing people to consider the latter as likewise being nothing but the latent power of the soul. He aims at substituting Christ’s salvation with psychic force. The modern attempt to change evil habits and bad temperaments by hypnosis is a forerunner to this objective.”
Watchman Nee speaks on this point extensively. I can’t quote the whole book, but this should suffice to show you Bill that you read with your flesh and not with your spirit. To understand this matter according to the Scriptures, you need to receive the dividing of your spirit, soul and body (Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23). The Latent Power of the Soul is to be read after you read The Spiritual Man, not before, otherwise you will not be able to understand it. Read The Spiritual Man. You are trying to understand with tools you do not have to be able to understand with.
Who can deny your pride Bill? When you write, “I have been right on, and your squirming only suits to solidify that fact.”
The answer is “not God”, to the question you ask, “Answered by who?” in response to what Nee wrote, “(second paragraph of Prayer) Someone may not pray to the God in his room. He may direct his prayers instead towards the person for whom he prays. This too is most dangerous. Suppose you have a friend who is over two thousand miles away from you. You pray for him, asking God, as the case might be, to either revive him in the Word or to save him. Instead of directing your prayer towards God, you concentrate on your thought, your expectation, and your wish and send them out to your friend as a force. Your prayer is like a bow which shoots your thought, desire and wish as arrows towards your friend. He will be so oppressed by this force that he will do exactly what you have asked for. You may think your prayer is answered. But let me tell you, it is not God who answers your prayer, for you have not prayed to Him. It is merely an answer to a prayer which you directed towards your friend.” I am surprised you need to ask this question, when it is quite obvious, when Nee writes, “it is not God”. Please read more carefully, for I can not even feed you milk, let alone meat, if I have to answer these kinds of questions. Wake up!
In your continued hostility and belligerence Bill, you write, ‘There is no "psychic force’. More and more unbiblical crap shows just how wrong Nee is.” But as we have seen, your self-declarations simply don’t count. If you are without a mind, you are without such force, so you would then be proposing passivity in your mind, understanding, and intellect in order to be controlled by Satan. Nee writes, “How unfortunate that many people are ignorant of the fact that the many ascetic practices, breathings, and abstract meditations of Buddhism and Taoism, the hypnotism of western Europe, and the numerous wonders seen in psychic researches are only the manifestations of the latent power of man’s soul. They do not realize how mighty is the power of the soul.”
“Brothers and sisters, let us not consider this as a minor problem nor dismiss it as a research for scholars. It actually has profound effects upon us.”
“Today Satan desires to release and display the latent power of the soul. As soon as man fell, God imprisoned man’s psychic powers in his flesh. His many powers became confined and hidden in the flesh as a latent force—present but inactive. After the fall, all which belongs to the soul comes under the control and bondage of that which belongs to the flesh. All psychological forces are thus governed by physiological forces. Satan’s objective is to liberate man’s soul power through the breakdown of the outer shell of his flesh so as to free his soul from its fleshly bonds, thereby manifesting his latent power. This is what Revelation 18.13 means by making merchandise of men’s souls. Indeed, man’s soul has become one of the many items of the enemy’s commodities. The enemy desires especially to have man’s psychological abilities as his merchandise.”
Since you deny these facts Bill, you open yourself up to these deceptions. That is your choice. For a Christian to act like you is unknown to me, and since you react in a way so unbecoming of a Christian with such false fruit, I for one, have not seen anything in your words and thoughts to suggest that you are a Christian even though you might say you are. Praise the Lord for God’s word, “For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh” (Luke 6.44-45).
Bill, you show you are without the love of the Lord in your life and are uncaring, when you write, “How can you POSSIBLY take this quack seriously?” in response to what Watchman Nee and Jessie-Penn Lewis accurately wrote,
“Why
is this so? Because you have not prayed to the God in heaven; instead your
prayers are projected towards, piled upon, and laid seige to, the person for
whom you pray. In appearance you are praying, but in actuality you are
oppressing that person with your psychic power. If you use your soul force in
praying for a certain one—say you pray that he should be at least disciplined if
not punished—the prayer of your soul force will dart out at him and he will
accordingly be sick. This is a fixed principle of the soul. It is as sure as the
fact that a person will be scorched if he thrusts his finger into fire.”
“For this reason, we should not pray a prayer that asks that a person be
punished if he does not do what is expected of him. Such prayer will cause him
to suffer, and thus make the one who prayed such a prayer the instigator of his
woe. If we pray, we should pray to God and not towards man. I personally have
experienced the ill-effect of such prayer. Several years ago I was sick for over
a year. This was due to the prayers of five or six persons being piled upon me.
The more they prayed, the weaker I became. Finally I discovered the cause. I
began to resist such prayers, asking God to disengage me from what they had
prayed for. And so I got well. In this connection, let me quote from a letter
written by a believer:”
“I have just come through a terrible onslaught of the enemy. Hemorrhage, heart
affection, panting and exhaustion. My whole body is in a state of collapse. It
suddenly burst upon me while at prayer to pray against all psychic power
exercised upon me by (psychic) ‘prayer’. By faith in the power of the Blood of
Christ, I cut myself off from it, and the result was remarkable. Instantly my
breathing became normal, the hemorrhage stopped, exhaustion vanished, all pain
fled, and life came back into my body. I have been refreshed and invigorated
ever since. God let me know in confirmation of this deliverance, that my
condition was the effect of a group of deceived souls, who are in opposition to
me, ‘praying’ about me! God had used me to the deliverance of two of them, but
the rest are in an awful pit .... *”
*Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis, Soul and Spirit. Poole, Dorset, England, Overcomer
Literature Trust, 1968?, p.58. Also available in the United States from
Christian Literature Crusade, Fort Washington, Pa.
One can easily conclude in your response Bill, that you aim to deceive and are pointing to your self in so doing for how can someone be such an inveterate hater and so belligerent?
Name calling is wrong, so you should not say words like “dork”. This shows your hardened heart Bill. When you shut your mind down, and think you can escape the truth by banning people who give you the truth, or slither into your closed-in room, giving improper prayer, you only deceive yourself. Christians do not call Christians dorks, so this aids in further showing your have quite a supply of false fruit.
Bill, you are so full of selfish self-declarations and pontifications that come from you, not of God. You write, “Nee was vague about whether those heaping prayers at him’ were Christians or not, so I didn't want to assume he meant pagans praying against him.” Obviously, Nee is writing to help Christians from errors, so it is not helping pagans in praying properly, for they do not know how to pray properly. Plus you quote as if Nee said “heaping prayers at him”, when Nee never even used the word “heap”. You are too careless with your words Bill and you have no conscience to not misread profusely. Non-vaguely, Nee writes, “If we pray, we should pray to God and not towards man”, which, Nee being a Christian when he said “we”, is for Christians. Your words are increasingly getting dumber and dumber Bill. They were bad to begin with, but you are exhibiting how much worse you can get than you already were.
Bill, you are billigerent man, “There was no false witness born. You just have a reading comprehension problem.” As we have seen, you have born false witness and you have a reading comprehension problem, but not because you are dumb, but because your spirit is dead to God and to spiritual Christians.
Bill you write, “No, there is no evil in exposing foolish false doctrines” in response to my words, “Do see the evil in your words for you accused Nee falsely, when you said you ‘can see the evil in Nee's words’.” Since it is quite the contrary, why do you yourself not repent if you are a Christian? We shall know them by their fruit? In their sins of bearing false witness. Like I said, this is your favorite sin Bill.
Bill, you state, “Did Paul repent after exposing the Corinthian super-apostles or the foolish Galatians? Truth is on my side and I will not repent of truth” in response to my words, “Your errors are obvious, yet you say, ‘being deluded by the heresies of Watchman Nee’. Shame on you, for even after this proof, you still can not repent.” Even if one is an uttermost spiritual Christian like Watchman Nee indeed was, you should not blame him, for this is a gift of God for the Church. You can not even find a single mistake in his writings, and when you try to so fervently, you relegate yourself to sinning bearing false witness. Indeed, your conscience, that you don’t listen to, speaks forth about Watchman Nee, bringing up his walking deeply in the spirit when you said “super-apostle”, yet Nee never evangelized, remaining diligent in the Word. I find this most wonderful! If anyone had qualifications to evangelize it was Nee, but he did not, nor did he publish more than two books, and he was martyred, imprisoned for life for his faith. Corinthians were one of the most carnal Churches rift will all kinds of errors. Their fruit is well known, without super-apostles (a term you favor), as was the Galatians, but the truth is not on your side, and you will not repent for the truth. Who can say you are a Christian? I cannot say you are a brother in Christ for if this is how Christians treat each other in such obstinacy and bearing false witness, then they must be dusted off from our feet, as they can neither repent, nor do they have a word of care in their hearts. In other words, when they speak, the Holy Spirit does not speak through them, but rather, some replicatory false spirit not of God.
Bill, you contend with, “Me delusional? From the person who believes in ‘psychic prayer’?” Unwittingly, you believe in psychic prayer Bill. I believe such soulical prayer is wrong, that you shut your mind down to, yet you say God is either the Father in Heaven or Satan, without distinction in no discerning who you are praying to. The reason you err in this fashion is because you are trying to worship a god, or even God with your mind of your soul, not realizing only spirit makes contact with Spirit in your inner man, when (and, if) you are born-again into the new creation. Praying through what Adam had before the fallen which became corrupted is psychic prayer not of God. Ergo, though men try, it is independent from God’s will.
Bill, you write, “I never questioned your salvation, but you have repeatedly done so to me. You are NOT Jesus and can not judge my relationship or standing with Him.” I never said I was Jesus, and it is not of myself that I know you are not born-again. It is by your false fruit as fully documented here throughout, time and time again. God reveals by the Spirit you are not a member of the body of Christ, so stop pretending that you are. If you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit Bill, you may yet come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus Christ into your life. If not, you will remain an unregenerate. That is your choice. I can only give you the truth, you still yet need to receive it.
Make note your doubletalk Bill is recorded here, contradicting yourself, “I love when heretics claim The TruthTM and say that we who hold to the historic ideas of the faith are blocking”, accusing me directly after I said, you “apply whatever other means to shut your mind down to the truth, but the fact remains, you did not repent. You will not, because there is something blocking your heart not of God”. Yet, you contradict yourself because you said in the above paragraph, you never questioned my salvation, and when you said I am “not characteristic of one who follows Jesus”. Such double talk is merely, more false fruit.
Bill, you are a deceitful man whose words contradict themselves, thus they mean nothing. Your duplicity is not characteristic of one who is in Christ. I have yet to see any your fruit of being in Christ. Here, we have seen through and through how you act, even as I come back once or twice a year to your forum to help you; yet still you can not repent from your various false teachings, not the least of which is your anti-Nee fanaticalism and love of sinning bearing false witness. Praise God, this is not how spiritual Christians are treated in the church. Ergo, you are not in Church.
Bill, your anti-Nee fanaticalism is shown when you said, “Yet you listen to Nee who mixes New age-ism with pseudo-Christianity? You wouldn't know the truth if it came down and wrote on the wall for you.” There is no new age or pseudo Chritianity in Nee’s writings, at least none that I have read so far. If it were so, you would have shown by now, since you are so convinced in your self. Your hardened heart blocks your heart from what it is to be a Christian, with love, truth and life.
Please make note, I have posted all your comments here for future reference, pertaining to your hostility and reviling Bill.
What God has revealed to me about Bill the Gnat (Cat) from theologyweb, is that something drastic is going to have to happen in his life before he can receive salvation. He will have to be pulled down so far in humility, before that can happen. Right now, he is too far gone to come to the cross to receive God’s forgiveness and the blessing of eternal life, this much is true.
Love, in Christ,
Troy