Helping Joey Faust

 

Conclusion: Making the unholy claim of confusion, dipping that which is sanctified and made holy in our members into the lake of fire in a prolonged elongated fashion leaving no time for outer darkness training/discipline is your unrighteousness Joey and should not be allowed within you to continue for it misrepresents God's Word and other spiritual brethren like Watchman Nee in your opinion of what you believe Nee meant (mentioned below).

 

Joey Faust is wrong on three accounts: (1) He thinks hell is Hades and by his reasoning we then must be resurrected from hell, not Hades with no apparent distinction between the two. (2) He believes non-overcomers in Christ are sent into lake of fire. This is wrong, for a non-overcomer would never come out if he was sent all the way in. The truth is only that which is needed to be burnt off has the fire applied to it: "hurt of the second death". (3) He believes Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20.14). This is impossible since you can't cast a lake of fire (hell) into a lake of fire. Makes no sense. I believe the cause of this common (KJV) way of thinking on Joey's part was due to translators wanting to throw in a hell inordinately in certain verses, but Hades (Sheol, grave: Abraham's bosom) can not be a hell (for it includes the resting dead, both the bad and the good, though separating the saved and unsaved), but is a place of timeless unawares awaiting resurrections of parousia as well great white throne at the end of the millennial kingdom peace and rewards.

 

It is from this area we may say there exists an "abyss" = "bottomless pit" = the same place as from the "sea" seen in day 2 that came up to split the firmament from what was made desolate in Gen. 1.2, then, restored into "days of restoration" (commonly thought of the 6 days of creation) in which it was not called a "good day" because what was held in the sea was openly exposed allowing disembodied spirits to be released. In Rev. 20.13-14, Hades describes the place to be resurrected from (third part of creation), death is the aspect of this place that gets you there, and the sea, of course, already mentioned (Rev. 21.1) is that which will be cast into hell (lake of fire, gehenna: corruption of Ge-Hinnon). By quoting Watchman Nee, Joey tried to prove that Watchman Nee agreed with him, but he has failed in misreading Nee as proven below throughout. Nice try though. If there was a man who believed in partial rapture but was not saved I dare say Joey would be that man for his profuse teaching that Christians go to hell. He should know better, but he does not. Why he does not is uncertain, whether it be unsalvation or carnal Christianity, I can not be sure. This precludes any possibility of Joey being a spiritual Christian at the time of this writing.

 

It appears to be that these 3 errors are the foundation of Joey's altering God's Word; but as time permits, I'll dissect the rest.

 

Joe Faust writes

You can find the article under the title, "Answers to George Zeller" under "Answering Critics of The Rod."
You write:
"Do you understand what I mean that there is no fire about outer darkness at all? That one is associated to Tribulation while the other is associated to the millennium."

No, "HELL" is present during the Millennium. The Devil goes there, along with the wicked, as well as the carnal, unfaithful believers who did not use missing the rapture as an opportunity to repent and get right. Do you have my book yet? It deals in depth with the warnings in Matthew 5, 10, 18, 24, etc., Mark 9, etc. where HELL is plainly a warning for believers, and this warning is CONTRASTED with entering the Millennial Kingdom. To miss the Kingdom is to go to Hell (until the Great White Throne). Even Watchman Nee writes:

"We believers are exhorted to fear Him who has power to cast into Hell...thus implying that over some Christians Hell still has its threat (Luke 12:4,5)...."

Similar testimonies abound from other partial rapturists, as recorded in my book.

I do not associate outer darkness with the Lake of Fire. Take some time and read my book, understand my position, and I would be more than happy to discuss these points further.

In Christ,
Joey F.

 

My Response to Joey Faust

Hell being gehenna, the lake of fire is what everything bad gets thrown into after the millennium.

What you are doing, which is the cause of your inordinate hardness, is simply, you are confusing the (1) abyss (sea or bottomless pit) with (2) Hell (gehenna lake of fire) and (3) Hades (sheol). These are 3 different places. You are mixing and matching that which you should not which is the cause of your error. During the millennium Satan goes to (1), that is obvious, it is not Hell. Unbelievers during the millennium go to (3), the bad side of it. As the verse below says (1) and (3) are thrown into (2) at the final judgment. Really simple. I have no interest in reading your book for what can I learn if you can’t get these basic essential points right. Your whole foundation will be misapplied if you miss these basic points. This is vital.

You have misread Watchman Nee. "We believers are exhorted to fear Him who has power to cast into Hell...thus implying that over some Christians Hell still has its threat (Luke 12:4,5)...."

Watchman Nee has said here God has the power to cast into hell (lake of fire gehenna), and we believers are exhorted to fear him, but not for believers to be cast into hell but rather that our God has such power to cast into hell, and that in that power of Hell has its threat, not because Christians will be cast into hell but that they will come so close to it in God’s judgment upon them for living soulishly it will hurt them. i.e. my burner example that heats off the mud on the hand so they can be disciplined and made ready in outer darkness.

Since Hell is the Lake of fire you are indeed associating Christians to be thrown into the lake of fire (hell). You have misread Watchman Nee on this, clearly as well as the Word of God.

Let me ask you a question, you said you do not associate the lake of fire to outer darkness yet you cast Christians into hell which is the lake of fire. Do you see this contradiction? I see clearly you are misusing the term, “hell” and not seeing in the Scriptures that that term really should be Hades, since Hell is the Lake of fire. Such a thought is common sense as we all know the pictures of Hell in our mind.

In all of Watchman Nee’s writings we find that his writings clearly show he believes Hell is the Lake of Fire showing that Hell is misused throughout the Scriptures and should be translated Hades so that when Watchman Nee above stated “Hell”, he indeed meant lake of fire, not sheol (hades). Do you see this vital point? If you reject this it creates hardness.

The bottomless pit (abyss or sea) is not hell, nor is it Hades.

Rev. 20.13 Then Death and Hades (3) were thrown into the lake of fire (2). This is the second death, the lake of fire;

Yet there is no mention of (1) yet. Fair enough. Read on.

Watchman Nee writes on 32 of Mystery of Creation that this place (abyss) for demons is a “place of detention” that the demons (evil spirits) who were terrified not to say to him, “not to command them to depart into the abyss” (Luke 8.31). This abyss is the bottomless pit, not the lake of fire.

Pember wrote of the bottomless pit, “it is a fiery hollow at the center of the earth: but it is also used for the depths of the sea, a meaning which accords well with its derivation.” Nee says “the book of Revelation informs us that one day Satan will be cast into the abyss (20.3). Evidently some of the demons are now imprisoned there, but some of them are still free, waiting for the appropriate time when they too will be shut in there. This abyss is most likely in the sea, not the center of the earth.”

There will be no more sea in the New Heaven and New Earth (Rev. 21.1) after time of final judgment (Rev. 20.11-15).

This sea is the same sea (abyss) of Gen. 1.2. It is the same word in the NT as abyss. Notice that day 2 was the only day that was not considered “good” because evidently when the firmament separated the waters above and below, that separating pulled up some demons from the sea (abyss within the sea) that they had be shut into when the earth was made desolate from the sins of Satan and the fallen angels and the demons they ruled over.

In Rev. 20.13 says “the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them”. Nee writes “we understand how death and Hades will give up the dead, but we are often puzzled how the sea will give up the dead in it. And so here we see the meaning of (1) abyss, sea, bottomless pit.

No one is cast into hell until the final judgment (Great White Throne) at the end of the millennium.

Praise the Lord! Amen.

Troy Brooks


 

Joey Faust writes:

I am sending you a book today. I found your address in a past e-mail. Sorry for the delay. Also, some other thoughts (until you read my book). The warnings in Mark 9, and Matthew 10:8 (etc.), which apply to true disciples (as Nee, Pember, Govett, Panton, and many others, rightly see), do not speak of "coming near" hell-fire. They speak of experiencing it. Matthew 10:28 speaks of KILLING and DESTRUCTION (as other verses).

Nee's words concerning "hurt" do not speak of being NEAR, it speaks of the TEMPORAL nature of the chastisement upon true believers. But I will leave the rest for you in my book.

In Christ the King,
Joey F.

 

My Response to Joey Faust

Such a chastisement is a hurt but a never a throwing in. That is what differentiates the saved and the unsaved. As the analogy goes, it is like having your hand covered in mud, and then bringing it close to a burner that literally dries off the mud and it hurts your skin, and then the mud becomes so dry, so that when you enter outer darkness and are disciplined and made ready for the new city after a thousand years, it just flakes right off. Do you see the difference?

 

In fact, not even demons are thrown into the lake of fire until the millennium is over. I do not follow any particular man, not Nee, nor Pember, Govett or Panton, but I can say that Nee does not say what you say he says. Indeed, Nee when referring to his comments in Revelation 20, refers to coming near hell fire which is if you wish "experiencing it", yet it is never a throwing in. A throwing in is something wholly different. And I am convinced this is the source of your hardness and it is reflected in your life since you are widely know to be a hard head. Such is not of a loving God that would throw his children into the lake of fire for it is a place of eternity for the unsavable. I am not convinced this is what these other authors believe as you do, but if they do believe as you do, they would be wrong, and it is justifiably a reason for many people to reject partial rapture if it were true, but praise the Lord, that it is not the case. You need not appeal to men Joey Faust. Not only have you misrepresented Watchman Nee, but you have done damage to the Word of God on misrepresenting partial rapture.

Watchman Nee said on page 155 of King and the Kingdom of Heaven (CFP) “"To burn them" is to be cast into the lake of fire (see Rev. 20.10, Is. 66.23-24) typified in the Scriptures by the Valley of Hinnom (which lies south and west of Jerusalem; please note, too, that the original New Testament word Gehenna - hell - is a corruption of Ge-Hinnom)."

What Watchman Nee is saying here is to be burnt is to be cast into the lake of fire forever. Here we see “lake of fire” terminology being used with the term “Gehenna” and “hell” as all the same places. Not only is hell also gehenna, but it is also the lake of fire. Watchman Nee was right, I can not deny this, for I see it in the Word.

Matt. 10.28 is used in the same way Watchman Nee described above regarding Luke 12.4,5. Nee does not speak of temporal chastisement at all, as you say, and nor will you ever be able to find such a quote to make your case. “Hurt” by Nee does refer to nearness of hurting. After one is placed in Hades waiting for resurrection, it is a non-cognizant timeless state in which the resurrected leave from it in the same state as had they entered into Hades. The timelessness of being hurt by the second death is timeless. You don’t want this nevertheless because it hurts, even in timeless unawares. It is senseless with regard to time. Where the real gnashing of teeth (seach for "gnashing" and "weeping" for the meaning of these terms in their contextual verses) regret is experienced is in outer darkness, not receiving the reward of reigning in the millennium.

 

After this occurs up to the commencement of the millennium then outer darkness is issued for non-overcomers. Those who also die during the millennium, those whom are saved, will also undergo a similar process, in that when they die, they will go down to Hades, be resurrected upon judgment at the Great White Throne, drossed off by the lake of fire (timelessly, senselessly) and then live in the new city. See my article on the thief in order to understand this matter of timelessness cleansing.

 

In reference to your comment on Matt. 10.8, there is no such warning as you say. Perhaps you were referring to 10.28, but as we have seen you have misused this verse. The same principles hold for Mark 9 also.

 

Therefore we can see that you hold no ground for your claim that Christians are thrown into hell or the lake of fire or gehenna, if this is still your position. Let it go.

 

Praise the Lord. Amen.

Troy Brooks


 

Joey Faust writes:

If you wish to speak English, and use the English word HELL, then you should understand its definition. "Hell" means UNDER, as in HELmet, or HEEL. Hell is NOT the Lake of Fire:

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and HELL delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  14 And death and HELL were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

You delude yourself and believe this fantasy if you wish, but anyone who takes the time to READ would be able to see that Nee believed exactly what I say he believed. Let us test your theory (that Nee is simply saying that God has the POWER, but that there is no real danger of hell for believers). Nee writes:

[Commentary on Matthew 10:28]: "'Destroy' here refers to being DISCIPLINED, not being annihilated..."

[On Matthew 18:8] "Should the activity of your hand or the movement of your foot cause you to stumble, you ought to pay teh greatest price of cutting it off and casting it away - ELSE, if you allow it to stay you will stumble others. The one who holds on to any stumbling action will himself 'BE CAST INTO ETERNAL FIRE'; yet please note that although the fire here is described as being eternal, this is not our eternal portion."

[On Matthew 5:29] "An unbeliever will still GO TO HELL even if he plucks out his eye. Thus what is spoken of here is not dfor unbelievers but FOR CHRISTIANS."

And I haven't even begun to deal with his many quotes on Gehenna in part 3 of "The Gospel of God."
Now you may not agree with Nee and me. Yet, to attempt to misinterpret Nee to your own ends is very dishonest. And instead of talking about my "hard" spirit, you need to take a look at your own attitude. You display a very emotional, bitter spirit (almost as if you have been a disciople of the Local Church for years). I have dealt with the type before. Am I not correct?

In Christ,
Joey F.

My Response:

You need to put yourself in my shoes and see the Holy Spirit working deeper so it may work for you in the same way (it will change your soul's thinking and soften your spirit's sensitivity).

You may wish to attribute the word "hell" in this way, but ask any person in school or anywhere and they will tell you the opposite of heaven is hell, not an above or below, but a different path in eternity future. That being the case and simply common sense, the appropriate term is Sheol in the OT or Hades in the NT (third part of creation) to refer to that which is under as different from the meaning of hell. Hell is the lake of fire of burning forever and ever. Because you get this mixed up Joey, I don't believe your mixing it up is the cause of your hardness, but rather your personality is skewed this way, that God wants you to put on the cross, which is the cause of your accepting this hardened view that you must go through the lake of fire. Watchman Nee does not teach.

A helmet is on the head, so relating the word hell is lame to your words like heel, etc. Hellinization is a problem too but let us look deeper instead of being so lame comparing words and derivates. Take Rev. 22.15 and the word "without" in this verse. This word without, does not mean those outside the new city who multiply and are fruitful who go through the gates of the new city to receive renewal. Rather it means "without the city" as being the "lake of fire".

No mention of up or down or even across, just simply "without". The use of the term "lake" implies boundary "without" (see Watchman Nee's, Come, Lord Jesus, p. 255) which is Hell and does not mean under. The sea means under, the abyss means under and the bottomless pit means under. Hell is something else, a lake of fire or gehenna [see W. Nee's Come, Lord Jesus p. 215 in which he speaks of "hell (Greek, gehenna)."]

It is better for you to realize that all that is in the sea, and the sea itself, all that is in the abyss and the abyss itself, all that able to die ("death"), all that is in the grave and the grave itself, and all that is in sheol and sheol itself, and all that is in Hades is Hades itself, and all of it will be thrown into the lake of fire hell gehenna. It has been a wrong teaching throughout the NT confusing hell and Hades where it has been done so. Think of Hades as having two sides. The good side (Abraham's bosom) is where believers wait for resurrection, and the bad side of Hades is where those who wait for resurrection at Great White Throne who are unsaved.

You might want to reread what I quoted in what Watchman Nee believes (above) in our other correspondence. He clearly disagrees with you even though you think he agrees with you. What vanity. You find this throughout his writings, that Watchman Nee clearly disagrees with you about Hell.

You will see how dishonest you are being or niave, but either way you are pompously in error. Whether you do this because you don’t know any better or because you are consciously being deceitful I don’t know, but as you have seen Watchman Nee totally disagrees with you as do I, and so does the Word of God. See his writings on page 33 of Mystery of Creation when he quotes the Scriptures on Rev. 20.13 as “death and Hades”, and he further uses it in this fashion, “we understand how death and Hades give up the dead”, not death and Hell as you are trying to put words into peoples mouths. That is like trying to throw the lake of fire into the lake of fire.

In a sense people are attacking you because they see this error in you as I see so you turn them away from the truth of partial rapture completely as a consequence as a result of your misreading of the Word of God in the details of partial rapture. I don't blame them for seeing something wrong in you when you say Christians are going into hell. Wake up Joey. You are teaching a sophomoric unreality. You are holding onto a part truth while accepting part untruth also.

Not only is hell not hades (since we are resurrected from hades, not hell), but also that if a Christian were thrown into hell, that is all of himself and not just those parts that need to be lost and burned off, then he would never come out. That is why you will find Watchman Nee making the qualifier, "fire here is described as being eternal, this is not our eternal portion." Never should you think to yourself a loving God will dip a believer’s portions that do not belong there for that is unrighteous of God. It is in the fact that if a believer needs to cut off a foot or an arm to preserve himself he should do this so that sin in that member does not permeate his entire being.

Quotes of  Nee below show that he has the same position as I do, that no mention of the portions of the man that are clean and true will come anywhere near the lake of fire. When Nee refers to the fire, it has its fulfilling purpose to do what it does for Christians not allowing any portion burned off allowed ever to enter outer darkness. This is a very special principle. God has foreknowledge to save a person enough to know that that believer will not be fully dipped into the fire forever, for his soul is savable. In using the analogy below of a burner or marsh mellow, not even in the case of the marsh mellow is it totally dipped in fire for it that were true the insides would be burnt also.

This view is better than to accept your legalization of the Scriptures. It is possible to go too far Joey in what you are trying to do. There is no mention in Nee’s commentary, in his belief - when he said “any stumbling action” - to indicate that those portions that were well kept in the believer deserve be cast into the lake of fire. This is merely your fantasy Joey in believing this, yet your hard nature causes you to cling on to misreading of the Word of God.

Other than today’s modern day Bibles displaying the word Hell where it does not belong, when it actually means Hades, I can find no find reason why you want to still cling onto the idea that we are resurrected from Hell and not Hades. Doesn’t this terminology at all seem at odds with your spirit? Let me simply testify that God has promised me that if and when I die in this body of flesh, He will send me to Hades at which point He then will resurrect me not from Hell, but from Hades where I was during the Tribulation. And after Judgment Seat, He will use the lake of fire if necessary to burn off any dross in my life if required. He promises me according the Scriptures and by His Spirit indwelling that I will not be cast into the lake of fire those portions that have been sanctified and unblemished, forgiven and overcome. And that is why Nee said the same essential thing in which only “stumbling action” will be in “himself cast into the fire”,  not his whole being.

As to regarding Matt. 10.28 again you have misread what Watchman Nee meant when he used the word "destroyed". This is very spiritual. You have legalized his statement. In v.28 while Satan can only kill the body, God can kill the body and the soul. But surely God will not kill the saved man's soul. The word destroy suggests a fear and reverence of what God can do. That is why Nee said, "Be not afraid of them" and "fear them not" (v.26) for there is One greater to truly fear. It is not a legalized throwing of Christians into hell and killing their soul that must follow since anything thrown into hell remains there forever. If the man were all thrown into hell, there can be no salvation for the man. Give God some credit. He has the foreknowledge to save a man for eternity. He will not save a man, then take away eternal life, then give it again. That makes no sense. It is an eternal life, once saved always saved. 

You don't dip a man into boiling water and expect that he is not forever damaged for his insides would be destroyed too. Instead God's way is to bring one close to the lake of fire, dry up that mud on his hand and let any parts which is dross be burnt up in the lake of fire so that he may overcome through the millennium in outer darkness. It is like marsh mellows too. The marsh mellow is white inside but when you roast the outside it gets burnt and even falls off. The whole marsh mellow never went into the fire, only the outsides. In the same way, God will let any part burn off that does not belong after judgment seat, even to touch the burner so that it comes off if necessary, but never does God put the whole man into the lake of fire, because if he were to do that, the whole man would never come out. That is what Hell is. That is what the Lake of Fire is. A place of no retreat. A never coming out. That is the difference, the key ingredient that you are missing.

The same principle holds with Matt. 5.29 "not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell." If it were the case that the whole body were to be cast into hell, then the whole body (spirit and soul) would never come out since Hell is the Lake of Fire and a place of eternal separation. v.29 is not saying that the whole body would be cast into hell, but that a great hurting from the second death may be needed all over if you don't let the sin stop spreading from your members. Yet the believer no matter how sinful, selfish, natural or possessed will never be immersed into hell, only that which needs to be removed, in which it seems only the lake of fire can remove it.

As regards to Matt. 18.8 notice Watchman Nee qualifies his statement very carefully when the next sentence reads "....yet please note that although the fire here is described as being eternal, this is not our eternal portion. The emphasis in this passage is on what kind of fire, not on how a person shall be burned." I must agree with this statement, that that it is not on "how" a person is burned nor is it "our eternal portion", but rather, on "what kind of fire." Do you see how precise this point being made is? The soulish believer will have those portions of himself he holds onto thrown into the lake of fire timelessly employed. Read v.8 again, "it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire." Jesus is saying it is far better to enter into heaven and resurrected life without these sins of your body and selfishness of your soul still linger. Watchman Nee, when he says "be cast into fire" is not the whole person, but those portions which have been stained and irreconcilable and need to be lost for sake of the rest.

As regards to Matt. 5.29 we observe the exact same condition, of parts or portions being thrown in of total uselessness now. An UNBELIEVER, this verse, says will go to HELL. Watchman Nee says "an unbeliever will still go to hell even if he plucks out his eye." But a believer is in view here, and a believer is never thrown into hell, only his portions he HOLDS ONTO. Do you see the difference? You are teaching a wrong teaching Joey. You have made an idol for yourself of throwing Christians into hell and holding this over them, not dissecting this difference. Unless you are willing to applying this dissecting difference, you are acting as a source of confusion, misleading people astray.

You pressed me on another issue, which I reply by saying I have never been in the Local Church even once. I have never gone to one of their Local Church meetings ever. I have been blessed with the discernment not to even go once. This is your mistaken assumption because you are looking for something to blame. I merely started reading Watchman Nee from Christian Fellowship Publishers whom I found to be the most spiritual Christian writer I could find perhaps of hundred different names, and as you can see on my site, I have noticed countless problems with the LSM-LEE-LC false system that tried to alter Watchman Nee's writings while W. Nee was imprisoned for the rest of his life.

Other people who brutally misread Watchman Nee like yourself, which I have kept a record of. I have been reading along and talking to people.  I document it to help others and you, and leave it up to you to not be an over-assumer and misreader.

I guarantee you that you will never find even once instance of Watchman Nee using the term, "hell" to describe Hades or Sheol, not even once, yet you carry on as if it were so like you somehow know better, anyway. You are very arrogant. There is a demarcation between Hades and Gehenna just as there is a demarcation between Hades and Hell just as there is a demarcation of Hades and the Lake of Fire, since Gehenna = Hell = Lake of Fire.

What I believe you are doing is reacting emotionally yourself with hard emotion losing the sensitivity of your spirit for things of God as you confuse hell for hades, which you find very appealing given your personality type. You are deluding yourself. It is as if you are spinning your wheels trying to do too much in your life, but they are false works, and this is a quick and easy way for you to handle these verses, but they are shortcuts that are not quite right since they must be appreciated in your spirit, and not with your mind's inordinately legalistic view.

 

Granted, it is easier to read the Word to be able to just say, non-overcomers go to a Hell, but it simply doesn't represent reality. What I recommend is that you allow for a dividing of your spirit, soul and body in walking after the spirit in Christ. In think how to help you, I can only offer one book with the Scriptures to enter spiritual life. Read Watchman Nee's, "The Spiritual Man". It is the best work ever done by mankind on the subject. I really have no better recommendation but to truly letting it work in you. What I have discovered is individuals who allow for this patient dividing of their spirit, soul and body, will soften up and their spirit will be more sensitive to these more intricate matters.

 

You'd better get working on those gehenna quotes and try another angle because you are failing miserably in sending Christians to hell.
 

Praise the Lord. Amen.

Troy Brooks


Joey Faust writes
Now notice how Nee rebukes your misrepresentation of him below. I look forward to your repentance after you read this. If not, please do not send me any more e-mails until you repent. You pretended to understand Nee, and wanted to reprove MY supposed misrepresentation of his writing. You stated that he only taught a "coming near" the fire DURING THE TRIBULATION. However, you had only interpreted him to teach this, having never read his works closely. You were unaware that Nee largely followed Pember and Govett, who taught the possibility of 1000 years of FIRE for carnal believers in Gehenna (English "Hell"). Now you can read the material below and say, "I must confess that Nee does teach what you say he teaches." You may not agree with Nee and Pember and Govett and Craig and other partial rapturists on this subject. But you should never accuse ME of not understanding Nee's writings. Now when you are willing to confess this misunderstanding of yours, I would be happy to correspond with you further. If not, please know that your e-mails will go to my trash bin without briefly a glance:

"If our problems today are not dealt with specifically, WE WILL SUFFER specific punishment IN THE FUTURE KINGDOM...(p.441)...There are many places in the Bible that mention God's punishment for the defeated Christians IN THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM....(p.443)....The Lord shows us that if Christians tolerate sin, THEY WILL SUFFER iether the casting into the eternal fire with both hands and both feet, or the entering into life with one hand or one foot....The fire is an eternal fire, but it does not say that they will remain in the eternal fire forever...he WILL suffer the punishment of the eternal fire IN THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS. He will not suffer this punishment eternally, but will suffer it only IN THE AGE OF THE KINGDOM...This shows us that if a saved person does not deal with his lust, he will not enter into life, BUT WILL GO INTO ETERNAL FIRE. The eternal fire here is the Gehenna of fire. The BIble shows us that a Christian has the possibility of suffering the Gehenna of fire...he can only suffer it DURING THE AGE OF THE KINGDOM....(p.446)....The word 'hurt' in the orginal language means to INJURE someone and to damage him....IN THE MILLENNIUM there is only the hurt of the second death. If some Christians have not dealt with their sins, they will still suffer the hurt and PAIN of the second death....The BURNING IN THE KINGDOM will go on at most FOR A THOUSAND YEARS...." (NEE, "The Gospel of God")

My Response to Joey Faust

Your arrogance proceeds you. You are still throwing me your deaf ear. You are not listening, but please make an effort this time, especially. Please read carefully. You have some unsolved problems, things you must repent from if you love God. At the very top of this thread were three mistakes in yellow that still remain that you never confront or deal with specifically. You are bringing in new mistaken assumptions misreading me like "coming near" and about "Pember and Govett". I am aware of these authors already, but your application of them is still wrong.

I searched through the Watchman Nee books from Christian Fellowship Publishers and I never found a book called “The Gospel of God”. Is this one of Witness Lee’s book versions you are relying on? Are you aware that LSM adds new unknown Watchman Nee books? I can’t believe you are citing from a cult? I need you to find the comparable source from Christian Fellowship Publishers since as you know LSM is a cult. It is not to be trusted but you place your trust very readily in it it would appear. Lots of people make this mistake not seeing the underhanded play going on by Witness Lee tweaking Watchman Nee's writings and adding new thoughts or expanding on thought to make it like his own. Correct yourself NOW, and REPENT. You know what you need to do.

After you complete that project (which will shed wonderful light for you), note in Nee's writings,  if someone is born into the millennial kingdom, then they die, the lake of fire must still be applied to their life also IF NECESSARY. This is the point of the lake of fire still remaining. The lake of fire’s effect doesn’t just go away for those who are to die during the millennium. You have to use some common sense reasoning here and think for yourself a bit. Since as we both realize Watchman Nee admits and you admit that there is no fire about the “outer darkness”, none whatsoever, what this means is that quickly after the lake of fire burns off dross (whether that means the foot comes near or is dipped in is academic since it is the dross that is affected not the person's sanctified members), then the believer is placed in outer darkness to be disciplined and prepared for the New City.
Making the unholy claim of confusion, dipping that which is sanctified and made holy in our members into lake of fire in a prolonged elongated fashion leaving no time for outer darkness training is your unrighteousness Joey and should not be allowed within you to continue for it misrepresents God's Word and other spiritual brethren like Watchman Nee.

 

You can't have the believer being dealt with by the gehenna at the same time they are in outer darkness. And you can't have a person in the lake of fire throughout the millennium never entering outer darkness either. Do you see your illogical stance? I assure you Watchman Nee does not believe as you do, and Govett and Pember most likely do not think as you do either in your hardness and flawed thinking. This has been a great blessing for me to see this and share it with you to help you.

Do you see how that works? My point throughout is that your teaching is wrong that the believer is entirely cast into the lake of fire. For such an act is only possible in the unsaved that thus then never come out of it. And to promote this teaching or say that Watchman Nee believes such a thing is incorrect in the fineness of this point. Also note that it is just “both hands and feet” are cast off, not the person. It’s as if the feet are being dipped in or brought close to burn of the dross, so as to allow the believer to enter outer darkness quickly thereafter. Fire doesn't take long, but outer darkness can take a long time.

The LSM cult is a hard cult to control its populace and limit their emotions, so their teachings are hard like yours so perhaps that is why you enjoy quoting their unconfirmed versions of Watchman Nee. Here is a brutal example of their altering The Spiritual Man, for example.

 

Note also that "gehenna of fire" is used to refer to the lake of fire, hell, that place eternally without the new city. I believe you had a problem with that before in which gehenna was the lake of fire (hell). Only during the age of the millennium is the suffering possible, that is the "hurt of the second death" after which it is no more in the heavens. And the heavens as Nee says (and I agree) is not below for heavens is above.

 

After this dross burning off procedure, then outer darkness is applied. In order to show you a comparison of this working, go to page 78 of Come, Lord Jesus, and notice Watchman Nee says at the very bottom, "they are also resurrected" referring to Rev. 6.11, and more specifically to, "such as worshipped not the beast, neither the image". This refers to the fellow servants and their brethren that go through the Tribulation itself and are martyred just as the same brethren (one of three groups) are mentioned in Rev. 20.4. Yet how can this be since Tribulation has not even started yet since the 7th seal has not yet been broken in Rev. 8 and since these martyred brethren have not even died yet?

 

The explanation is simple. It simply means that at this point, as they die ONE BY ONE as they come in through the Tribulation as martyrs they will be raptured immediately afterwards, three and half days later. If you apply this same principle to our discussion, you notice that the first thing that is applied to the person is the lake of fire quickly and timelessly to burn off the dross, and then they are immediately thereafter brought into the outer darkness for discipline and preparing them for the new city. Do you see this wonderful transaction God employs?

 

I really encourage you to find the same comparable quote of Watchman Nee from Christian Fellowship Publishers. I am not saying you won't find it, but even if you do, which you very well may, you will find it will also be worded in a way that will not be quite what you expected. If you make this effort of discovery on your part, it will help you a lot in seeing the finer details more clearly as it is a better translation and not a fraudulent one either adding unknown Watchman Nee sentences and new writings, and also, that individually the application and necessity of the lake of fire is not throughout the millennium personally, but rather corporately it's application for everyone as they die so that is why it still remains until the millennium has run its course.

 

Don't be a hard case. I encourage you not to run away from your misreading of Watchman Nee for you help no one in misrepresenting him this way,  and deal with this matter specifically, more intricately and accurately, taking the deeper look. While this is a distant matter to most people, to your family, your children this is going to be damaging for it is a symptom of your personality type that you have not let die on the cross when you take on this view which is a hardness throwing that which is holy into hell. This type of confusion is not really that much different than the MINGLING of everything in the LSM cult that you quote from they employ to control people.

 

Praise the Lord. Amen.

Troy Brooks

 

Another Writing to Joey Faust (no further reply from Joey)

On page 408 of the Rod my sense on Matt. 5.30 is you have gone overboard here. It just so happens this particular verse is hell, for it is gehenna lake of fire. This verse is figurate not literal, because it is speaking of the now, and judgment working upon the person now for sin held onto. It’s like saying allowing your whole life to be degraded into requiring judgment that affects of the second death of the future even working upon you now. At judgment seat, as we have talked before, we do not get cast headlong into the lake of fire, only those parts that need to get burned off or drossed off in the lake of judgment. Like Wilkin (I am afraid he might be Pentecostal), we believe that that judgment is quick but the outer darkness is long without reward as the outer is in relation to the air and the darkness of course also the condition of the world upon His return. 

You know Watchman Nee had the highest IQ of any Christian on record (and the most spiritual that I am aware of) that ever lived and you don’t deal with his writings at all in King and the Kingdom of Heaven and Come, Lord Jesus. You don’t need lots of books to cover this. It is a simple subject. http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm

It is wrong to think you are cast down to Hades (place of waiting for resurrection) or Hell (place of eternal punishment, second death) again after you are resurrected for that is a place of death and when resurrected you don’t see death, but outer darkness outside the light of reigning during the millennium. Though some are softer than they should be which is not loving, you are harder than you should be and that is not loving truth either. 

Watchman Nee got it right. There is not one thing you will be able to say against him. But yet you disagree with Him on Christ’s parousia and day of the Lord. 

Paul mentioned the vision he had of Third Heaven and Paradise. This was double emphasis on the same place before the throne and the New Jerusalem above. The emphasis is not on the  third part of creation, hades for once resurrected from this place we never go back. Note that hell is never called OUTER darkness, just darkness as it pertains to blindness.

Matt. 5.30 deals with the lake of fire judgment at resurrection to burn off dross to be then cast into outer darkness outside the light of reigning in the millennium so that your view on page 408 is wrong, not a return to Hades nor a being put in hell, but a dross burning off like dipping one into a hot salt cleansing bath yet it has to be eternally strong enough to burn off to bring you into outer darkness loss of rewards, and such is the lake of fire affect that would proceed the millennial outer darkness. Similarly on the same page regarding Matt. 18.34,35 this verse applies in the now, to the lake of fire dross burning of Tribulation on earth, and above of the dross of the lake of fire at judgment seat as well as to the disciplining in the millennial kingdom not in the underworld, but outer darkness. This is spiritually motivating.

The Bible is more law than most realize, but some go too far the other way on certain things.  

Instead God treats the Bible like Biblical Psychology, Redemptive Design, Deliverance and Overcoming, not falsely telling Christians they will go back down to the place of needing to be resurrected from after they are already resurrected. This teaching is kind of like non-OSAS, saying we have salvation then we can lose eternal life by going back to hades. This is unnecessary hardness, but you have already made up your mind. It makes me sad because I know it will be without reward in the millennium. Sometimes it is even unsalvation. Yes, even partial rapture believers can be unsaved. You could be playing with fire. The sense I get of your approach is like Witness Lee of the Local Church who totally destroys Watchman Nee’s writings. Witness Lee does the same thing. He steps where he shouldn’t belong in modalism and modern day city locality tempting the Lord. I feel you are tempting the Lord in the same spirit. The Holy Spirit leads me to say this to make sense for you. I believe you are way too people oriented though with all those quotes which is ok, but at some point you have to take those people and push them aside, and just see that the Word has not a single verse that says you back down to the underworld after resurrection.

OSAS arminianism is right. Non-OSAS arminianism is wrong. Calvinism is wrong. You did not make this distinction in your Two Historical Errors chapter.

I wish you can understand that it is possible to legalize the Scriptures as a partial rapture believer.

He "was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification" (Rom 4.25) which obviously you already know, but rather I wanted you to look deeper at what Nee said so this verse becomes life for you, "We escape the pains of the eternal lake of fire by His death and resurrection", p.99, The Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation, CFP white covers only.

With a little prayerful meditation and contemplation this softly in our spirit is telling us that we will receive no pains from the lake of fire but be judged another way by the fire of the illuminating light of the Lord. So at best you can say a Christian is dipped to burn off dross from the fire, even so that it does hurt since non-overcomers can yet be hurt by the second death. Yet Christians are clearly judged another way, by judgment seat, by fire illuminating, not lake of fire scorching. There is a different flavor, a different affect. Outer darkness is for non-overcomers and ultimate darkness is for unregenerated in the fire of the lake of fire.

A Witness Leeist cult member emailed me yesterday and said that non-overcomers are in the lake of fire for 1000 years. This lake of fire teaching for Christians has gone way way overboard. Yes fire is judgment. Yes Christians will be judged. But the kind of fire God will apply to Christians is illuminating fire not lake of fire focused. It is terrible you do not make this distinction because what you do is harden the hearts of Christians and turn non-Christians away from the body of Christ.

Praise the Lord. Amen.

Troy Brooks

 

 

So far I have finished reviewing these chapters of Joey's book, The Rod, Will God Spare It?


Chapter 1- excellent - I like how Joey really touches the conscience (note to self - he provided quotes from the 17th century to the 20th century - look back further to finding quotes of men from previous generations besides the first three centuries.)

Chapter 2 - excellent - I like how Joey pinpoints the legalists are really being antonomians towards the judgment seat and how the true church has been persecuted for this accusationfor believing just as Paul did, ironically.

Chapter 3 - good - Joey, I was wondering on page 20 you decipher the errors between the salvation dependent on works vs. those turning salvation into hope and no more. This is true, but on page 21 you mention prodigal lawlessness vs. hopeful fuitbearing salvation becoming a lawlessness. On page 21 you seem to be speaking of calvinists in the Reality of a Carnal Christian, leaving arminiasts out, otherwise you should have said "The truth of accountibility is the golden mean between the prodigal lawlessness of salvation dependant on works on the one side, and a Romish hope through fruit bearing on the other." Nevertheless, I see that you see there is a lawlessness in arminianism too in the legalism of thinking salvation assurance can be stolen leaving open a lawlessness.
One other point. On page 27, I agree, for many the question needs to be left open of the absolute assurance of reward, but notice in Rev. 2 and 3 some are given a "white stone" and not only that, they know it as being one of those who comprise the first resurrection.

Joey perhaps also should have made the effort to state that calvinism is 100% unsalvation instead of walking in the middle, because calvinism ultimately says that they were saved by being premade for salvation and that makes them zombies and their god a zombie god. Instead, Joey, your answer for me is a walking in the middle becomes a little too ecuminical. But such is a common mistake of men. Joey, you really part of a Baptist denominational mindset. What baptists do is they walk the middle of the road, teetering on the fence trying to marry these two views. This is seen in the fact that Joey needs to use the term "hyper-calvinism" not realizing that "calvinism" is the problem, not a hyper-version, since all calvinism says those that are saved were premade that way while others were premade for hell.

He does admit that Arminianism comes very close to the truth (noted on page 21), which is true. This is why it is acceptable to say OSAS arminianism is God's Word, though non-OSAS arminianism is not. Arminianism just fails in the 5th point, but 50% of arminians are OSASers and for them there is not a problem. Properly reflective terminology by Joey should have been not arminianism and hyper-calvinism, but rather hyper-arminianism and calvinism. By this understanding we can see that Joey incorporates this baptist middle of the road, as most baptists err on the side of calvinism. As a foundation for why this is so it is based on false locality.

The locality of the church is never denominational and since Joey is a baptist, his problems lies in his Kingdom Baptist Church. Watchman Nee disects this matter in that the locality of the church to prevent denominationalism should never extend beyond the boundary of local walking ground so as not to be programmed by centuries of Baptists. Though Faust is independent, he should then accept true locality which is not independant but part of the locality in which it resides and closely attached to the localities that it is next to of the universal church. The way to solve this problem is simple - remove independent names, and speak of of one's Biblical locality which will contain several thousand people, instead of independent operations. For example, if you lived in a hamlet of 15,000 people then that is your locality and may you name it as such to identify it, thus preventing independent man-made efforts for the church is not divided on persons either, nor country, Bible onlyisms, doctrine The church local is divided based on nothing but population size and walking space for proper assembly and fellowship. How far we have moved away from this since Biblical times due to independant moves, KJV onlyisms, etc. We can still communicate globally, but independant efforts are removed. Denominationalism is really the cause of the problem. It is because every baptists I have ever met deals with this debate in the same like they are programmed, but they never touch life. To touch life one needs to remove that which does not belong, and that is anything larger than a true biblical locality. We should not be defending our denominational bias. See here,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/whichchurch.htm

To understand the problem potentially in Baptists who demand water baptism, please find correction here,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/waterbaptism.htm

Jesus spoke to Nicodemius about water for this is how people understood at the time since John baptized in water, so Jesus spoke to them in a way they could understand by water in repentance necessary for initial salvation just as Jesus was baptized in water also by John. Doctrinal denominationalism of Baptists is not Christianity no matter how hard they try to make it so; for it is impossible marry Arminianism and Calvinism since there is no such thing as total depravity and there is no such thing as non-OSAS; and the preservation of the saints of calvinism is not the same thing as the preservation of the saints of OSAS arminianism. While the latter is made in the image of God to choose to receive God's life so God can choose, the former says they are preserved because they were premade that way. Demented.

Chapter 4 - acceptable - except that Joey states that the 24 elders are the church at the end of this chapter on page 36-37. He need not prove reward by this misreading of the Scriptures. The 24 elders are not the church for a solid ten reasons stipululated here (scroll down to section 4.4):

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_4.htm

My recommendation to Joey to get deeper into this: read Watchman Nee's Come, Lord Jesus, on Rev. 4 and 5, and also see the arrow shot at the first seal which gives Satan a deadly wound at the cross 2000 years ago.

There are 8 good reasons why the church is not raptured in chapter 4 (see section 4.1) First rapture does not commence until Rev. 7.9 seen before the throne right before the Tribulation starts for those who are overcomers to escape the hour of trial based on readiness, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10. And clearly note that to remain congruent between verse 9 and 10 of chapter 5 in Revelation, the word "them" is used, not "us" for in "us" is a pride, but these 24 archangels are praising God for His glorifying redemption of them, the church, concluding that the church is in now way the 24 elders. This has been a KJV error obviously passed down. We know that Joey Faust is a KJV onlyist and does not speak highly of the preserved Word of God through the open Bible which gives no control to one particular Bible.

The same 10 reasons are stated here again,
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Partial_rapture.htm (scroll down to section I., C.).

It is important we appreciate the administrative roll the angels play as represented by the 24 courses and not misuse these verses to consider this to be the church instead to let in any pride at all. (Note - these are Joey Faust's actual beliefs not taken from other writers posted in his own footnote on page 37, footnote #14). The same mistake by Faust is also made on page 46 (footnote #4).

Reward is integral. There is no doubt, but let us not get carried away and go too far and legalize rewards inordinately making it an idol Have trust in the Lord that His reward will be most appropriate in all cases, not dictating to God what reward shall be; nor devising some systematic discernment of what the reward should be. Simply accept and trust in God that it is within the sphere of His holiness to give reward to motivate us in which we can garner a little bit of understand of beforehand. Watchman Nee so well stated this fact revealed in Scripture, Matt. 19.16-20.16 in the matter of the "coin", produced here,

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/notlegalizing.htm

Chapter 5 - excellent - this life will have negative reward.

Chapter 6 - excellent - negative rewards at judgment seat. No mistakes this chapter were made except that matter of the 24 archangels (elders) being the church.

Troy Brooks