VIC

Vic wrote:
Maybe offend is a bit of a harsh word. But the fact ramains that Pre-wrath and Post-tribulation raptures are not the same. The timing is different. They teach it will occur at the end of Daniel's 70th. week. We do not. We believe and teach it will occur just before the opening of the seventh seal. The seventh seal, as you know, is not at the end of the 70th. week...it is somewhere in the second half of the week. They teach that believers will have to go through the Great Tribulation, protected, of course. We say we are out of here by then. Why can't you grasp that?


 Troy - I am not willing to grasp that which is untrue. If you misrepresent another (posttribber) person, I simply will not grasp it. I am now repeating myself. The post-tribbers that I know none of them say that in their 7th trumpet resurrection that it will occur after Christ returns because they all say they must return with Christ, and in order for that to happened they need to be raptured before He returns, and that puts their rapture at the same time as pre-wrath. Do you see how foolish you are being? It is really vanity. You are trying to differenitiate yourself on a lie. You think by changing the name to pre-wrath you make yourself different from posttribbers but you are just the same and you are both wrong, both taking away the hope of the church for in the hope of Christ is the hope of escaping the Tribulation a time of extreme wrath both of God and of Satan. Not only will posttribbers go through the Great Tribulation, but so will prewrathers since 7th trumpet (7th woe) resurrection happens after the 5th and 6th woe of Great Tribulation. Post tribbers also don't say they are protected in the Tribulation but accept many will have to die, meet the Antichrist, and refuse the mark in martydom. This is the same thing Pre-wrathers say, but there is no love of God or truth in saying this for it takes away God's promise to escape the Hour of trial if you are accounted ready to be received (Rev. 3.10). It is like saying to God you don't want to be ready. Dangerous thoughts.

 
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This brings up another point. Because of the timing, we do not believe we will be in Heaven when war breaks out. Since the war occurs Mid-Trib, at the descration of the new Temple, we are still here. And you keep bringing up the point that we are negating God's blessed hope. This is not so. We have the 'blessed assurance' that we be taken out before God unleashes His Wrath on the unjust. What more could me ask for? It is such a blessing to know that God loves us so much that He would take us out of the way before His wrath, the Day of the Lord.


The war does not occur at mid trid since it is quite clear the war is seen in Rev. 12 and since Rev. chapters 12-19 give the details of Rev. chapters 6-11, just like Gen. 2 gives the details of Gen. 1. Compare the similarity of the man-child overcomers raptured to those in Rev. 7.9ff. You begin to realize they are the same. And this happens before the opening of the 7th seal which opens the 7 trumpets that make up the 7 year Tribulation. So in this chronology then you realize that such a war in the Tribulation goes on for 3 and a half years before Matthew 24.15 starts at the 5th woe.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Chronology.htm Therefore, we are still at the abomination of desolation at the 5th woe, but not the overcomers since the overcomers were long ready to be received back at the 5th and 6th seals before Tribulation started seen at Rev. 7.9 thus raptured. 7.9 deals with the rapture generally, not exclusively, showing when it is first seen in heaven. Therefore, those at the 5th woe you mentioned are the non-overcomers in Christ. God is already leashing his wrath in the Tribulation itself so you have not been afforded the right of God in your belief to be taken out since we know many martyrs will occur in this time frame. Your rapture occurs only after many martyrs in Christ have occurred and God's wrath seen in the 1st to the 4th trumpets which certainly such elements will accompany some deaths, though not on a massive scale until the 6th woe beforethe 7th trumpet resurrection occurs. Your blessed hope is a hope of the comfort of 7th trumpet resurrection which is given to all believers but it has nothing to do with escaping the Hour of trial itself of the Tribulation. I have the same 7th trumpet resurrection afforded to me, but you take away the promise of Rev. 3.10, and Luke 21.36 that differentiates those in Christ who are watchful with those that are not ready to be received. Therefore, we must conclude you are altering things, taking away the hope of the church to escape the Hour of trial IF they are ready. This is wrong. Think this through.

 
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You believe there is more than one rapture and that some are not worthy of the first rapture. First, I still don't see where in God's word it says there is more than one rapture.


Even after I already gave you the verses specifically, I know you are still stuck on this, which gives me grave concern for you.

 
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Second, by doing so, you negate this, as well as many other verses in the Bible... Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8
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For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


This is the whole point of everything we have been talking about. You accept the substitutory death of Christ spoken here in Eph, but you reject identification or co-death in Christ about being ready to be received at 1st trumpet to escape the Hour of trial promised us Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, God's loving promise, Mattew 24.37,40-41 and Rev. 7.9. You have literally, lazilly accept only part of the cross of Christ. That is your sin. This is what it means to remain a fleshly carnal Christian and so you will get exactly what you want, to go through not only the Tribulation, God's wrath, but also the wrath of Great Tribulation and you will be tested whether you will take the mark of the beast if what you say is true that you believe in Jesus Christ.
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/markofthebeast.htm

 
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WHat more can man do to be saved that the Lord has not done already?


Exactly, so why do you reject what God has done and only accept half of what He has done, but not the other half of what He has done for you so you do the same with Him and identify with Him in co-death? When you are reached on this matter only then will you love God's promise to be kept from the Hour of trial, that hour which is the consummation of this age of the last week, none other like it, a one time event.

What this you are doing is commonly referred to as easy-believism and it is without the rewards in the millennial kingdom and for many it actually is a symptom of the sign of their unsalvation or at best loss of rewards such as revealed in Matthew 7.21. They literally give co-death in Christ no consideration, so God does not consider them His children. It's like getting a new job, getting paid for years, but never doing any and proclaiming to the world pridefully you don't have to. This bad fruit is very troubling and revealing, when the Bible never said that.

Question - From http://www.gotquestions.org/partial-rapture.html. There are some believers who hold that only faithful Christians will be taken in the rapture, with unfaithful Christians left on earth to suffer through the Tribulation. The problem is that the Bible does not support such a concept. The passages which describe the rapture (1Cor 15:50-57; 1Thess 4:13-18) definitely seem to apply universally to all Christians, mature and immature, faithful and disobedient. Verses like Romans 8:1 and 1Thessalonians 5:9 tell us that God does not pour out His wrath on Christians. I do not believe there is any Biblical evidence whatsoever for a partial rapture. Every believer will be taken to heaven in the Rapture. Matthew 25:1-13 is not describing some believers being left behind, it is describing unbelievers being left behind. Notice that Jesus says to those left behind, “Truly I say to you, I do not know you” (Matt 25:12).

Answer - Of course there will be a partial rapture. 1Cor 15:50-57; 1Thess 4:13-18. These verses when put together show that at the “last trumpet” you should expect those “alive” and “left” will be raptured along with those asleep for they refer to the “completion”. But what about Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10? It says clearly some Christians will escape the hour of trial, that HOUR that will come upon the whole world? And the condition set to be received at first rapture is a “keeping the Word of My patience”. Do all Christians do this? Obviously not.  

Just because God will have His wrath does not mean that Christians are receiving His wrath; many are being caught in the crossfire such as the martyrs in Christ mentioned in Rev. 6.11 and Rev. 20.4 who refuse the mark of the beast. Scores of martyrs in Christ die each century. I don't need to tell you that. There is a misconception between the wrath of Satan and the wrath of God. Even now today Christians receive the wrath of God, but in the Tribulation it will accelerate. God has a promise though, that if you are patient, watchful and ready, you may be received at first rapture. This is a hope which comes with the hope of Christ's return and also starts the war in heaven by those few overcomer Christians raptured at first rapture that cast Satan out. 

Matt. 25.1-12 is not about first rapture. It is about those who are raptured throughout that receive the reward of reigning during the millennial kingdom. Not all Christians of course are in the first resurrection which is a "best" "out-of" resurrection from the conglomerate of resurrections of parousia. We can say that the 5 wise virgins in Matt. 25 may be included in the first rapture if they are alive at first rapture; and they are definitely included in the first resurrection, which approximates 1/7th of all saved Christians as typified by Philadelphia and the few mentioned in Rev. 2 and 3 given a "white stone" or who are called out ones, which again, not the whole church is so sturdy in Christ and obedient.

This is not an ordinary not knowing in vs. 12, but rather an unexpected answer to those lazy Christians. I don’t want to clutter you up, but there is 6 more reasons here on vs. 12, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_25.htm, that you may read at your leisure.

If you go through the rest of it, you come to the conclusion that all 10 virgins are all Christians since they all have oil, and many other reasons. Yet do not use this as a matter of first rapture for that is dealt elsewhere as in Matt. 24.37,40-41 and Rev. 7.9 raptured to the throne before the 7th seal breaks open the blowing the 7 trumpets of the 7 year Tribulation which is based on man-child readiness of Rev. 12.5 which gives the details of major points seen in Rev. 7, that is interjected between the 6th and 7th seal for first rapture.

This “left behind” stuff is negativity propagated by that series. Instead God wants you to see positively what He is doing. He is trying to get you to overcome, not just substitution but in co-death as well in full deliverance from sin, natural and supernatural. He can’t receive you to heaven until you are ready, and if you are not ready to be received at first rapture because you did not keep the Word of His patience, then how can He receive you? You will have to wait for 7th trumpet resurrection and go through the time of  testing to be tested, to refuse the mark and even be martyred if called to do so.

There is one other matter of major importance. If you assume first rapture and end up in Tribulation, your overassuming will have no way of realizing you are in the Tribulation thus taking the mark of the beast and in your conscience unbeknownst to you thinking it is ok. May you heed these words and see the error in pre-tribulation onlyism by receiving a cleansed conscience.

Troy Brooks