Quote Originally Posted by Struggling Atheist
I just saw a clip of the AE, and suppose that you are the person, who telephoned with them. The video had a link to a biblocality thread, in which I found many postings of you, and a link to your youtube account. If you don't know about this TV show please excuse and dismiss this message.

I would like to tell you a little story about myself. I think I was around 15 years old or so, and I was a firmly believer in god. One day I had an amazing thought: I discovered a proof of existance for god! This made me feel quite happy, because suddenly I knew there was a god. The prove was like this: everything we observe must have a cause. We can follow back a chain of causes into the past. Deep deep into the past. This would at some point bring us to a moment where nothing existed. Now we have the problem that Something can not just spring into existance from Nothing. So I concluded that god must exist as the cause.

I was excited about this thought. And I was proud, because this was my own thought, at this young age. I did never read about arguments back then, and did never hear about this idea before. Only years later I learned that I was not the first to have it. Anyway, back to the time when I found this idea, just some days later... I had another thought... And this was: what if there is a law of nature that *only* works when *nothing* exists? And this law is: if nothing exists, a Universe must start to exist.
You previously just proved there can be no such law of nature where nature would come from nothing. Perhaps your problem is you did not have the proper foundation to make that claim. The proper foundation is in realizing there are trillions and trillions of causes in nature, an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, but no hard evidence something in nature comes from nothing, and that which does not exist has no energy, matter, time and space, so it can't cause anything. You're trying to violate the first law of thermodynamics: "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process in an isolated system, the total energy remains the same." Therefore, if there was only nothing before, then the universe would never have come into being. So what's really going on is when you were younger you were less stained by sin and more readily willing to accept logic, reality and that which is good. As sin begets sin as you get older, still separated from God, your brain jumps through hoops tries to do mental gymnastics to be independent from God. God created you to to be dependent on Him. So you reject His will and therefore, shall go to Hell. Most people who get saved don't do so by this or other logical proofs. They just realize by grace through their conscience all things sum up in Christ and so they give their lives to Him completely! I think the foundational problem before was that you never gave your life to Christ, not really, and your argument was weak because you only asserted your claim something can't come from nothing rather than observing the evidence behind why that is, the very evidence just stated.

I was disappointed that my "proof of god" was destroyed so easily. This is an alternative explanation of how the Universe could come into existance. God is one option, another one is this law of nature. We can not observe this law today because there already is something. The problem is that we can not disprove this alternative option. We can not disprove any of those two. This brings us into the position that we can not decide which of those options is right. And then, there could be quadrillions of other causes, about which we can not know anything today.
As we have seen the universe can't come from nothing because that which doesn't exist can't cause anything. It doesn't exist. Another way to see this is to compare nothingness to God. A mind is needed to create a mind. A conscience and consciousness are needed to create a conscience and consciousness. Only a being with free will can create a being with free will. That which does not exist doesn't have these qualities. Ultimately what you are doing in living your life as though the universe came from nothing which lowers your conscience, morality and meaning in life without ultimate accountability. Thus, every day you live on this planet with that mindset you corrupt the world with your presence, way of thinking and are unhealthy to be around. You're not goo for people. There can't be a quadrillion of causes as you say, because you can't even mention one of those alleged quadrillion. Obviously, your fantasy life has taken a turn for the worse. Mindlessly you just assert it with no basis. The evidence is in, nature always needs a cause from something, and the ultimate cause must have standards greater than us. The Creator is always greater than the created.

Today, over 15 years later, I know of course about he conservation of Energy. So, today I know that the Universe indeed always existed. There was never a point in time were more Energy or less Energy existed than right now. It only was condensed to a singularity, and via quantum physics this got unstable and thus changed its state, so that a tiny portion of the energy became matter, that we can observe today.
You're contradicting yourself, since before you said there were only two options: God or nothing is the cause. That's funny to say "nothing is the cause." If nothing is the cause then the universe never came into being. Now you are saying the universe always existed so it needs no cause, another silly theory. For something to go unstable needs a cause. It doesn't just happen all by itself. I think what happened is everything in that singularity God didn't design to go unstable, but expanded according to God's will in a very stable build out.

The problem with your theory, of course, is that if the universe always existed, you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so. It gets even weirder. If the universe always existed there would have been an eternity going on before now so you would never have been reached and thus, you should never have existed. An always existing universe or infinite regress are theories that are inherently contradictory.

And moreover, compare your singularity to God. A mind, will, emotion, conscience, intuition, self-consciousness and God-consciousness are needed to generate these qualities in a being. So God of the Bible trumps your idol any day. You lose, you're going to Hell.

So, equiped with this knowledge we can understand today that the Universe always existed, but in another state, and that no gods are required to explain its consistence. And btw, I maybe understand how you feel right now, because I was there too. Maybe I am wrong, but you will not like this idea, and dismiss it and not accept what I said. But you don't need to give your point up in front of me/others, now that you know the explanation. But for yourself you now have an idea that will bug you, and you will always have to think about this. In the end I hope it helps you. Thanks, and have a nice day!
So equipped with the truth and not false knowledge, we can understand that the universe did not always exist nor start up from nothing. God created out of Himself, out of His majesty and glory. Incidentally, this knowledge is not something privy to later generations. What basic facts we know now we knew then which lead us to God.

I understand how you feel, I really do, because I was once like you unsaved also, a lover of the world, separated from God and too afraid to repent, and unwilling to let go of self and come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. But guess what, once-saved-always-saved. Those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). So while you can be like me if you give your life to Christ one day, I can never go back to being like you, for I gave my life to to the God who keeps, and He never breaks His promise. Hallelujah!

The many varied excuses for not doing giving your life to Christ is part of being independent and disobedient to your Creator and wanting to be eternally separated in Hell. Free will would not truly be free will if God did not afford you this choice. I agree gods are not going to help you here but only the One True God of the Bible. There are no gods before God, none beside Him and none after Him He says. In fact, He says they are just idols, things men make up to reject His way of doing things.

If you wanted to invoke gods there remains a problem. There can only be one uncreated Creator, otherwise you would have to explain where these others came from, but there cannot be an infinite regress of gods. If there was you would have approximated into that alleged past eternity, albeit supernatural, but as was explained before, you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. And you would not still be sinning to the extent you still do along the exponential progression of conscience you are clearly on.

Just like before when you said your original idea was nothing new, what I am saying to you now is the same answer I give to everyone, also nothing new. What you need to do if you were willing to come to God with an honest heart so He would reveal Himself to you is respond to these points instead of continually avoiding them. All I can do is give you the same answer to your mistaken thinking. Atheists are more like repetitive drones or zombies for Satan repeating the same thing over and over, never dealing with this same presentation in response.

In the end, I hope this leads you to Christ one day who died on the cross for the sins of the world, even you, but to receive the forgiveness and reconciliation back to God, you have to accept what God the Son did for you on the cross nearly two thousand years ago and when on the third day He raised Himself from the grave proving, indeed, He is God and the creator of the universe.

Praise the Lord!

Troy Brooks