Cunning as Serpent, The Couthful Dodge of Leeism

 

 My Response to the Leeist:

1.        As far as you know you would be wrong. Watchman Nee believed in all 5 points of OSAS arminianism and in free will coming to Christ and I have never met a Leeist that did not proclaim Calvinism. God did not preselect men for salvation. Do a search on the internet for "Watchman Nee Armianian".

2.        Witness Lee’s business, LSM sued Harvesting House. LSM is suing the introduction to the encyclopedia, not the section on Leeism. Fact.

3.        Watchman Nee views partial rapture differently than Witness Lee as explained already – essence being, Lee has his group 1st raptured, where Watchman Nee said the resting overcomers who were not martyred in past centuries are not raptured at 1st rapture. T. Austin Sparks said advanced parties are seen in all realms. Witness Lee got the wrong advanced parties, taking the focus off of martyrdom at 1st rapture, making Tribulation not a last week literal 7 years, and presenting the false idea that if you are part of the LSM-LC system you will be 1st raptured. Do you see how deceitful this is? 1st rapture is never based on one of Satan's organizations or a little harlot.

4.        Leeists that I have spoken to talk about the Sabbath and not the Lord’s day, calling the Lord’s Day the Lord’s Sabbath. No, this is wrong. The Sabbath has passed. Watchman Nee warned such a legalism would arise in one of his books, that had discussed the Sabbath. Nothing from the Lord’s Day comes from the Sabbath, none whatsoever. God is clear on this, I have the proof.

5.        Having a nomenclature is a sin if it divides the body of Christ or makes you out to be the body of Christ when you are not or of authority that is false.

6.        Watchman Nee didn’t create jargons and if he used a word less used, he would explain them and it would appear to be true in context, so He simply read from the Word of God, but Witness Lee profusely use terminology unacceptable in the church that goes directly against God, such as modalism sayings that say God is a person instead of 3 Persons, and the usual Calvinism sayings. No, this is wrong. God is 3 Persons.  And pronouncing yourself as a Leeist or a Calvinist is pretty straight forward as Leeists do this, unquestionably.

7.        Since Witness Lee already didn’t heed the delegated authority in Watchman Nee by altering Watchman Nee’s thoughts, playing footsie around him, and misrepresenting his thoughts, altering his writings and creating new false ones of Nee, even in new books never seen before, and then going legalistic with these above points, I am sure Watchman Nee would not approve of such things since they are not the truth. It is like saying if you said I was black, but I am white, I most certainly must disagree with you and denounce any false authority you think you may have in your proclamation.

8.        Shanghai Gospel Bookroom is not a precursor to Living Stream Ministry since Watchman Nee would never have approved of Living Stream Ministry based on its false teachings of modalism, screamers, Calvinism. There is lots of other cults that make themselves subsequent followers also falsely using Watchman Nee’s name and writings. To be fair to Witness Lee’s translations, they are really bad. Trust me. He has biased them, changed meaning here and there for his view to come forth instead. Go see for yourself. It is already documented and proven by some. A full work on all Lee's Watchman Nee books will prove the case to you. Actually all you need to do is compare one book to come to this conclusion – Spiritual Man.

9.        You shouldn’t blame people for not speaking another language. That is as bad as Witness Lee's pentecostal days exploring the inner tower of babel in which a pentecostal would say you have to get the false tongues. All you need to do is read some comparisons that have already been done between CFP and LSM which shows you something is really amiss. And if you consult someone who is a good translator he would agree there is something heinous about Witness Lee's translations.

10.      Since most Calvinists and Screamer groups and Modalists are not Christians, so too most Leeists are mostly not Christians.  These are all thoughts of PRIDE, and the conscience of these faiths does not convict but God’s conscience in a believer does.

11.      This is a good forum to display these deceptions. You should take your rebuttle elsewhere if this is not the appropriate forum for you.

12.      All that has been said here, with due respect, is accurate between Watchman Nee and Witness Lee showing a difference between salvation and unsalvation, doctrinally, experimentally, and historically. Surely such wide divergences does not bring everyone into the kingdom of God.

13.      Watchman Nee was 100% OSAS arminianism. If you read his writings from CFP you would realize that. However I can see how you would get your opinion from LSM That is why it is warned to follow these exact instructions in this order on this page in reading Nee. This should be a proof to you. If you even do a search on the internet for Watchman Nee and Arminianism, you will see he is accused of being Arminianist just like Plymouth Brethren and others who hold the partial rapture view too, often which is the case. That is what you call consistency. Stephen Kaung was OSAS Arminian too. But Witness Lee was a Calvinist. Can’t you see this? If you can’t, this is how I know you are not a Christian because you have been blinded and kept shallow, vain in your realm of prideful preselectionism.

14.      You can even call on the name of the Lord violently in which the Lord says those who do this and say “Lord, Lord” (cf. Matt. 7.21) violently, He will say he doesn’t know them, Matthew 7.21. Did anyone get hurt from this? Yes, many Leeists are still unsaved and people have had to go into bankruptcy for being bullied by Leeists and the scientology fear employed by the legal actions of Leeism is wrong to try to prove you are a Christian. True Christians need no such action. The loss of God’s truth, and watered down views of Christianity in Leeism and false teachings is very hurtful deceiving many souls in Leeism to the lake of fire. You need to get a conscience.

15.      Witness Lee made himself out to be an authority, when he wasn’t one, whereas Watchman Nee never made himself out to be authority, and that is why he was one.

16.      Lee said sin is Satan and Satan is sin whereas Watchman Nee never believed this.

17.      Witness Lee was recovering great truths (or so he claimed) and Watchman Nee never did that. Nee preserved the truth. That was his principle noted in reading 3000 Christian books in scanning church history that the Brethren movement of 1828 really stood out for preserving the Word of God. That is the difference between pride and humility. One is a preservation, the other is recovery pride.

18.      Witness Lee lived a financially profitable life and it is almost impossible for a rich man to get into heaven than a camel to get through the eye of a needle. Watchman Nee was martyred and poor.

19.      There is nothing but strife and a poisoned spirit of dissension when the topic of LSM, LC and Lee come up and try to approach the real body of Christ throughout the whole world, because of their altering of God’s Word. This is to be expected. We must refuse them and the evil spirit in their spirit in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

Leeists says (a commentary of an LSM scout looking for people to sue):

 

 With all due respect, many of your characterisations of both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are incorrect.

That their teachings are somewhat different is definitely true, but not the way you characterized it.

As far as I know -

(1) Both Watchman Nee and Witnee Lee are not strictly Arminian or Calvinist. I would say they lean towards Calvinism.

(3) Regarding the lawsuit against Harvest House, the publisher did publish a book, "Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions," which includes the Local Church movement in its entries as a cult among the Mormons, etc. By the way, Witness Lee himself could not have sued them because he already died.

(4) How can you characterize the calling on of the name of the Lord as "violent"? Did anyone "get hurt"?

(6) Both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee believed in partial rapture (i.e. rapture before, during, and after tribulation) as taught by Robert Govett.

(7) Both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee did not advocate keeping Sabbath. Both believed the Lord's Table on the Lord's Day is central to Christian worship.

(8) Having a nomenclature is not a sin. Witness Lee probably created many more jargons than Watchman Nee. But Nee also has his own spiritual terms that have found its way into the mainstream Chinese churches (e.g. Chinese word for "fellowship" - jiaotong)

(9) That's your personal opinion.

(10) Watchman Nee started the "Shanghai Gospel Bookroom", which is the precursor to Witness Lee's publication arm "Living Stream Ministry". And to be fair to Witness Lee, his translations of Watchman Nee's messages are not too bad. He obtained the original manuscripts of the sermons from Hong Kong Church Bookroom.

(11) Can you even read the Chinese manuscript?

I shall reiterate that there's a few things said and done by Witness Lee and the Living Stream Ministry that raise my eyebrow. However, in my humble opinion, they are a Christian group with some extreme tendencies, not a cult. They are still dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

Moreover, this forum is about Watchman Nee, not Witness Lee. Bring your ungrounded allegations against Witness Lee elsewhere.