Partial Rapture vs. Posttrib Onlyism

Compare Partial Rapture vs. Posttrib Onlyism

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Postrib writes:

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From quotation in post #1 in this thread:
". . . Why do some want to take away the hope of the church? . . . "

No believers want to take away the true hope of the church, only the false hope of a pre-trib rapture. The true and blessed hope of the church is the hope of eternal life (Titus 1:2; 2:13; 3:7; 1 Thessalonians 5:8; Romans 8:23-25; Acts 23:6), which will be fulfilled in Christ Himself (1 Timothy 1:1; John 14:6; Colossians 1:27), and which will be given to the church at the very end (Matthew 24:13), at the revelation of Christ (1 Peter 1:13).

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From quotation in post #1 in this thread:
". . . why do some still want to see the Antichrist first . . . "

Some who expect the Antichrist before Christ don't want to see the Antichrist first, just as pregnant women who expect birth pangs before the birth of their children don't want to have birth pangs first; they just know what has to happen first.

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From quotation in post #3 in this thread:
". . . isn't this taking away hope . . . "

Saying that the church will go into the tribulation doesn't take away its hope for eternal life. Tribulation and hope aren't mutually exclusive; rather, tribulation works patience, and patience experience, and experience hope (Romans 5:3-4), so that we can both rejoice in hope and be patient in tribulation (Romans 12:12), hoping firm unto the end (Hebrews 3:6; 6:11; compare Matthew 24:13), unto the revelation of Christ (1 Peter 1:13).

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From quotation in post #4 in this thread:
". . . the Church has withheld his spirit from overcoming the whole world . . . "

The restrainer which is withholding the Antichrist from being revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can't be the church because Christians will be persecuted by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no Christians are outside the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and Christ's coming (parousia) to gather together the church will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8).

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From quotation in post #5 in this thread:
". . . received to the throne . . . "

The Bible doesn't say that believers will be raptured all the way into heaven. If we endure to the end of the tribulation (Matthew 24:13), we will be raptured only as high as the clouds to meet Jesus as He descends from heaven at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; Matthew 24:29-31).

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From quotation in post #5 in this thread:
". . . before the Tribulation starts . . . "

In the Bible we see that no scripture says that any part of the church will be raptured before the tribulation starts. Matthew 24:29-31 shows Jesus coming and gathering together His elect in the rapture after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 refers to this same coming and gathering together (verse 1) and confirms that it can't happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed (verse 3), for it must destroy him (verse 8). Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation, and that we will need patience and faith during that time.

The danger with the partial pre-trib teaching is that it attempts to give part of the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation. When this false hope fails, and the entire church enters into the tribulation suffering, many in the church could become offended with God that He would allow them and their little ones to suffer like that, and their love for Him could grow cold (Matthew 24:9-13), to where they could fulfill the apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which the Apostle Paul said must come before the rapture comes; or some in the church could even be deceived into thinking that the enemy has been able to somehow thwart God's will. But if we approach the tribulation knowing that Jesus has clearly warned us ahead of time what we must suffer (Mark 13:23), and that we must endure unto the very end (Matthew 24:13), when the suffering comes we will have a better chance of not being offended and of not committing apostasy and of not being deceived, and we will be better prepared to remain on the earth with patience and faith (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), no matter what happens.

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From quotation in post #5 in this thread:
". . . Luke 21.36 . . . "

We are commanded to pray always that we might be accounted worthy to escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36). But Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-trib rapture because some will escape the coming tribulation by dying before it starts (Isaiah 57:1; compare 2 Chronicles 34:28), or by receiving miraculous protection on the earth during the tribulation (Revelation 12:14).

The Bible doesn't say that the rapture is for escape from the tribulation; rather it says that the rapture is for the gathering together of believers from all around the earth (Mark 13:27; compare 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the clouds to meet Christ in the air at His second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

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From quotation in post #5 in this thread:
". . . Rev. 3.10 . . . "

In Revelation 3:10, Jesus is addressing only one of the seven first-century church congregations "in Asia" (Revelation 1:4, 11) regarding a first-century time of trial, just as Revelation 2:10 is addressing one of the first-century church congregations "in Asia" regarding a first-century time of trial. You can't take Revelation 3:10 without also taking Revelation 2:10.

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From quotation in post #8 in this thread:
". . . Enoch represents a keeping out of the flood . . . "

When we count up the years we find that the translation of Enoch (Genesis 5:24) was in no way connected to the flood in the days of Noah, but instead occurred over 600 years before the flood. And no scripture says that we are to look to the translation of Enoch as a type of the rapture, but instead the scripture says that we are to look to the patient suffering of righteous Job (James 5:10-11), which same patience we will need during the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13).

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From quotation in post #8 in this thread:
". . . it is not a keeping through . . . "

Regarding God's protection of the saints, during that part of the tribulation which is before the vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), only some saints will be physically protected from Satan (Revelation 12:14) and the Antichrist while other saints will be imprisoned and killed (Revelation 13:10, 14:12-13), many by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4). This is also how it was during the first century persecution of the church: only some saints were protected (Revelation 3:10) while other saints were imprisoned and killed (Revelation 2:10), many, like the Apostle Paul, by being beheaded.

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From quotation in post #8 in this thread:
". . . kept from the HOUR OF TRIAL, not just trial itself . . . "

The first-century church of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:10) wasn't raptured out of the time of trial that came upon the world in the first century, yet they were still kept them from that time of trial. The "keep from" (tereo ek) phrase used in Revelation 3:10 is used in John 17:15, where it's emphasized that we don't have to be taken out of the world in order for us to be kept from evil in the world.

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From quotation in post #8 in this thread:
". . . Matt. 24.37,40-41 . . . "

The "one taken, one left" event will be fulfilled at the second coming, for in Matthew 24:39-41 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" that He's referring to in Matthew 24:29-31. There's no third coming. And if you notice Matthew 24:31, the elect will be gathered together at the second coming; it doesn't say that the elect will be either taken or left, so that phrase can refer only to unbelievers who are taken and left. At the second coming, some unbelievers will be taken to where the birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28; Revelation 19:21), while other unbelievers will be left alive (Zechariah 14:16-18). So the one taken, one left event is neither before the tribulation, nor does it refer to believers at all.

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From quotation in post #8 in this thread:
". . . Rev. 7.9 . . . "

It says the great multitude "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:14) because they had entered into it; they couldn't have come out of something that they hadn't entered into. And it doesn't say they were raptured; they could have entered heaven by dying in the seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

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From quotation in post #8 in this thread:
". . . firstfruits 14.1 . . . "

Revelation 14:1-5 refers to the 144,000 singing in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5). They got there probably by dying sometime subsequent to the locusts of the fifth trumpet (Revelation 9:4). The souls of Christians go into heaven when they die (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).
The 144,000 will be the first fruits of those redeemed from the earth (Revelation 14:4) in the sense that they will be the best part (compare Numbers 18:12; Jeremiah 2:3) of the body of Christ. The 144,000 can't be the first fruits of those saved on earth in a chronological sense, for many other Christians were saved on the earth thousands of years before they were (i.e. the first-century church). See also James 1:18's use of the idea of first fruits in the sense that believers become not the chronologically first but the best part of all of God's earthly creatures. We see this sense of "first" as "best" or "highest" used elsewhere in Psalms 89:27 and Colossians 1:15, where David and Jesus are referred to as God's "firstborn" even though neither of them were born first chronologically, for many other people were born thousands of years before they were.

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From quotation in post #8 in this thread:
". . . so you can live evilly up to the last day . . . "

The belief in an imminent partial pre-trib rapture isn't required for a believer to keep himself from becoming complacent about his walk with the Lord, for he never knows when he's going to die -- his soul could be required by God this very night! (Luke 12:20; James 4:14).

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From quotation in post #8 in this thread:
". . . those things which are to come upon the whole world . . . "

"All the world" in Revelation 3:10 refers to all of the Roman Empire (compare Luke 2:1; Acts 24:5; 19:27).

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From quotation in post #8 in this thread:
". . . God can use his overcomers . . . "

Amen, and believers can "overcome" (nikao, Strong's #3528) and "get the victory" (nikao) by dying faithfully (Revelation 15:2; 12:11; 14:12-13).

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From quotation in post #12 in this thread:
". . . Stop looking for death first . . . "

It's okay to be looking for death first. Jesus was looking for death first (Matthew 20:18); the Apostle Paul was looking for death first (2 Timothy 4:6); the Apostle Peter was looking for death first (2 Peter 1:14-15); the first-century Smyrnans were looking for death first (Revelation 2:10). One need not pray for death like Moses and Elijah prayed for death (Numbers 11:15; 1 Kings 19:4), though one can desire to go be with the Lord via death like the Apostle Paul desired for himself (Philippians 1:23), for a Christian must hate his life in this world (John 12:25) and must believe that to die is gain (Philippians 1:21; see also 2 Corinthians 5:8). But one can pray daily for escape from the tribulation (Luke 21:36) knowing that it may mean one's death, just as one can go to a weight room seeking strength knowing that it may mean some pain first.

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From quotation in post #14 in this thread:
". . . Matt 16:18 . . . "

Matthew 16:18 doesn't mean, as some say (not you necessarily), that the forces of hell can't persecute and kill the church, for they have done so since the beginning of the church (Revelation 2:10) down until this day, just as they will in the tribulation (Revelation 13:10; 14:12-13). Gates are for defense, not offense. When the church preaches the gospel, it's able to reach past the defensive gates of the kingdom of hell to reach people who are lost within its darkness, bringing them out and into the light of the kingdom of heaven, and the gates of hell cannot prevail against this saving work (Psalms 107:14-16; Acts 26:18; 1 Peter 2:9).
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May the Lord Jesus Christ sow peace between us as brethren, and may He reveal to us the truth regarding these matters.:help:

Today, 08:19 AM
#37

Partrib writes:

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No believers want to take away the true hope of the church

The church would lose her hope - “Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) - for included in this hope is the blessing of escaping the Tribulation.

Were all of us believers to be raptured after the Great Tribulation, then our waiting would not be a waiting for Christ but for the Antichrist, since the latter must come first.

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pregnant women who expect birth pangs

A pregnant woman who puts forth the man-child overcomers (Rev. 12.5, Rev. 7.9) at first rapture is as a first born, like an Enoch. How unacceptable that her fistfruits and firstchild would come with the rest of her children at the later harvest. This is principle throughout the Scriptures and why you should not looking for your Antichrist first, but there is hope to escape the Hour of trial, not just the trial itself if you are accounted worthy by being ready accordingly (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36).

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go into the tribulation doesn't take away its hope for eternal life.

Look from God's eyes. He is not saying hope relates to eternal life, for obviously such hope is already evident. What God is looking for is a harbinger, an advanced party, the birthing of the man-child overcomers out of the church (Rev. 2 and 3) for as you look through His eyes He shows you that He doesn't want you to go through Tribulation if there is nothing to test, for there would be no need to go through the time of testing. But you will go through if you yet are not ready. It fulfills a deeper purpose than you realize.

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The restrainer which is withholding the Antichrist

That restrainer is Satan himself waiting for the right moment to unleash his fury by his Antichrist.

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The Bible doesn't say that believers will be raptured all the way into heaven.

Believers will be raptured to the air at the 7th trumpet. But overcomers at first rapture are raptured to the throne as seen in Rev. 7.9, Matt. 24.37,40-41. "stood before the throne" (7.9) and as we have been speaking of the manchild also "to his throne" (12.5) at first rapture. The places to be raptured towards are also different. Whereas Revelation 7.15 mentions to “the throne of God” and Luke 21.36 mentions “to stand before the Son of man”, 1 Thessalonians 4.17 says that it is to “the air” – Such distinctions would thus indicate that the entire body of believers is not raptured all at one time.

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Revelation 7:14; 13:10; 14:12-13 confirms that we Christians will be here during the tribulation

You have to stop arguing for that which I already know. You have identified the 7th trumpet resurrection. But you can't see the first rapture man-child. Incidently, 7.14 pertains to the past 20 centuries and therefore 7.9 the multitude is seen generally not exclusively; as it is compared to the details of the general points, Rev. 12.5 shows who these are who are raptured at first rapture.

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The danger with the partial pre-trib teaching is that it attempts to give part of the church a false hope that it won't have to be on the earth during the tribulation.

If you misunderstand partial rapture, you will stay in darkness. But if you see first rapture is based on readiness, only if they are matured and ready to be received to the throne, then you see a deeper working of God's life in the man-child overcomers. Your heat will be hardened and your spiritually affections will slowly dwindle away if you stay in your position taking away any such hope of being received for readiness. Albeit few will be worthy, but never should such hope be taken away. The majority of the church goes through Tribulation to be tested in the time of testing also. You need to accept the hope and be alert to its fact or you will most definitely be without the reward of reigning with Christ in the millennium (1st resurrection, Rev. 20.4 afforded only to a few Christians).

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But Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-trib rapture because some will escape the coming tribulation by dying before it starts

These are bad reasonings on your part. Death is not the hope. It never is. God does not and never wanted you to die from the foundations of the world. That is wrong to speak of God's heart that way.

Were the entire body of believers to be raptured after the Tribulation, there would again be no need for us to watch and wait and be prepared. Knowing that the Lord would not come before the end of the three and a half year's period, we could live evilly up to three years five months and twenty-nine days. Yet such a concept violates the very principle of the Scriptures.

The second school of interpretation does not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

Key - death is no hope.

Luke 21.36 speaking to all Christians, so that not all Chrisians will be worthy.

Luke 21.36 also proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experi-enced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34), If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the first and second schools of interpretation. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

Obviously, therefore, Rev. 12.14 pertains to the wilderness of Israel's 144,000 that are protected and sealed, not to the church, for the woman, the eternal will of God, has come down and becomes the woman, of the nation of Israel as Satan chases after her. Key - wilderness is the world and the wilderness is 12.6 pertain to the Jews. Christians at this time will not be running but being martyred, standing up for God's Word.

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Revelation 3:10 without also taking Revelation 2:10.

Rev. 3.10 speaks to the church of all ages, and should not be isolated to a particular time only without seeing the progression of the church ages. Philadelphia has its historical church, but also has its chruch around 1828 of the brethren momement who were renouned for preserving the Word of God. Prior to that was Sardis revivals of reformation, and prior to that was the RCC jezebel Thyaitira. And today we are in Laodicean of differing opinions as you well know. The only way to be kept from with certainty is to be raptured to the throne at first rapture for these can no longer be hurt by the second death (Rev. 20.2-7). Just as Rev. 2.10 are those who would be overcomers out of the church who would be first raptured, so too are those of Rev. 3.10. They are interconnected definitely. They are the harbingers and advanced parties necessary to cast Satan out of heaven in that great war that sets him down at Rev. 9.1 out of heaven.

Revelation 3.10 “The hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world” - This is the Great Tribulation. This verse tells us that a certain class of people may escape the Great Tribulation, even those who keep the word of the patience of Christ. Instantly it tears apart the arguments of the second school of interpretation as well as those of the first. Although Philadelphia represents the true church in the dispensation of Grace, it is nonetheless only one of the seven local churches in Asia at that time. Thus it shows that only a relatively small number of people (one seventh) may be raptured before the Tribulation. Furthermore, pre-tribulation rapture is not based purely on our being born again as children of God, but is dependent on one other condition, which is, our keeping the word of the patience of Christ. Do all believers today keep the word of the patience of Christ? Obviously not. It is therefore evident that not the whole body of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation. The second school contends, however, that this passage of Scripture does not refer to pre-tribulation rapture, for it speaks of keeping - that God will “keep” them safely through the Great Tribulation: just as, for example, when an entire house is caught on fire, one room may be left untouched; or for example, when the land of Egypt came under the plague, the land of Goshen where the children of Israel dwelt in Egypt went unscathed (see Ex. 9.26, 10.23 ) . Such an explanation is erroneous because (1) the “keeping” in view here is not a keeping through but a keeping from. In the Greek text, after the word “keep” in this verse there is the word ek which means “out of’ (as in the word ekklesia which means “the called out ones”). Here, therefore, ek signifies a being kept out of the Tribulation. And (2) “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial” (3.10a) - As we have seen, the trial which is to come upon the whole world is the Great Tribulation; but notice that it is not a keeping from the trial but a keeping from the hour of the trial, In order to be kept out of the hour of trial, we must leave the world. There are only two ways for God to keep us out: death and rapture. And hence part of the living will be raptured before the Tribulation.

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translation of Enoch

You must accept Enoch's rapture as a rapture for a reason. What is that reason? No matter whence it commenced before the flood, it was a rapture that God so loves because it means that one is ready to be received to the throne not having to go through the Tribulation or Flood. Enoch never died so he should have gone through the flood, but instead he was kept from the flood not by death as you surmise, but up to a whirlwind, like an Elijah as Job saw God's face in a whirlwind that place of being raptured alive to. To deny this is to deny our Lord and Savior's wishes with His Father to receive you to heaven, IF YOU ARE WATCHFUL AND PRAYERFUL and have KEPT THE WORD OF HIS PATIENCE. Only when you are a matured overcomer in Christ will you rise. Don't fight it.

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14:12

No doubt not every last Christian will be beheaded, but this verse speaks of something deeper. When God led the children of Israel out of Egypt He carried them as the eagle does its eaglets on its wings (Ex. 19.4, Deut. 32.11,12). The Jews at that time will receive special protection from God. The many references in Rev. to the Jews show God returning to His old testament period time to handle His promise to save a remnant of the Jewish nation seen sealed at Rev. 7.1-8. This is a clearer, better way of understanding keeping God's promise in view even from so many millennia ago.

Today, 08:19 AM
#38

Partrib writes:

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we don't have to be taken out of the world in order for us to be kept from evil in the world.

In times past, to be kept from the hour of trial did not involve rapture since Tribulation had not yet come, but in the consummation of this age such a pure promise can only be assured one way, and has to do with God so lovingly desiring to receive us to throne as early as possible. It is in fact the first rapture itself of the manchild overcomers that sets off the war in heaven. It is as if God is saying man has decided when he is ready so that God can return. God leaves it up to the man to decide for when it will commence. Even so Jesus must return then at the 7th trumpet point because of such massive division in the world we would have then all destroyed each other.

There is a failure in this second school to distinguish between rapture and the appearing of the Lord. There is a difference between Christ coming for the saints and Christ coming with the saints. That which Enoch prophesied, as recorded in Jude, points to the coming of the Lord, with his holy myriads” (see Jude 14-15 mg.) when His feet step down on the Mount of Olives. So does the prophecy which is given in Revelation: “Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen” (1.7). In taking the historical view, the second school of interpretation regards that part of Revelation up to chapter 17 as having already been fulfilled, with only the part from chapter 17 onward waiting to be fulfilled. (This is exactly opposite to the futuristic view taken by the first school of interpretation which deems only chapters 1-3 as having already been fulfilled, with the rest remaining to be so). If the book of Revelation only records primarily things of the past, then how can the average child of God ever understand it? It would require doctors of philosophy and learned historians to comprehend it! Furthermore, it would no longer be revelation either!

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The "one taken, one left" event will be fulfilled at the second coming

Not possible since the condition of the world when this happens is already happening seen in the 6th seal and referred to in Matt. 24.37.

The second school of interpretation does not accept the idea of a secret rapture; yet its followers forget the word, “Behold, I come as a thief” (Rev. 16.15). A thief comes secretly, is never preceded by a band, and always steals the best.

By reading Matthew 24.42 together with 1 Thessalonians 5.2, 4, it is evident that there are at least two raptures: for note that the first passage suggests rapture before the Tribulation because one must be watchful since he does not know when his Lord will come; while the second passage suggests rapture after the Tribulation because one knows when the day of the Lord shall come.

Mark 13 states, “But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (v.32), So that the day of the coming of Christ is unknown. But 1 Thessalonians 4 declares that “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God” (v.16). From this second passage we know that the appearing of Christ is after the sounding of the seventh trumpet. And hence the first passage re-lates to pre-tribulation rapture while the second relates to post-tribulation rapture.

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will be either taken or left

Since this section pertains to Christians from Matt. 24.32 to Matt. 25.30 both the taken and the left must be saved. What differentiates them is that of Matt. 24.39-41. This is a very special principle for it has to be according to readiness only to be received at first rapture to not have your house broken into. A thief comes to steal the best, not the least.

Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured ) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

There is a distinction made in the Bible between wheat and tares, some say, but no difference made between wheat and wheat; consequently, all wheat must be raptured. In reply, it should be noted that the times of ripening for wheat are not the same. Thus there are the firstfruits and the later harvest.

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"came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:14) because they had entered into it;

It doesn't say they entered into it. It says though they came out of it, out it being the past 20 centuries.

7.14 The phrase “the great tribulation” is not the Great Tribulation of three years and half duration. The reasons are as follows.

(1) At the earliest, the Great Tribulation should commence at the sounding of the “woe” trumpets, the first of which is the fifth (8.13, 9.1a). Yet in 7.9 is an intimation of a rapture having taken place before the seventh seal. Some of these people must have arrived at the throne without passing through the time of the “woe” trumpets.

(2) The Great Tribulation cannot begin before Satan is cast down to earth. Satan will be cast down at the sounding of the fifth trumpet (9.1); and before the horrible situation of the 42 months prevails on earth (13.5), the man child is already raptured to the throne (12.5). Though this man child may not include all the people referred to in 7.9, nonetheless we dare say that it embraces a part of that great multitude.

(3) As soon as the seventh bowl is poured, the kingdom arrives. During the kingdom age we do not see the temple in heaven, instead we see the temple on earth as described in Ezekiel. Who will have the time and opportunity to serve God during the Great Tribulation? Yet in 7.15 clearly states that God’s servants serve Him day and night.

(4) There cannot be so many people saved at Great Tribulation. Since the great multitude mentioned in 7.9 is said to have come out of the great tribulation (7.14), this great tribulation must be different from that which comes at the fifth and sixth trumpets.

(5) According to 11.1, there are those who worship in the temple of God in heaven. Aside from the people cited in 7.9, where can there be found any who worship God in heaven? For at that time the Great Tribulation as predicted in the book of Revelation has yet to begin. In the new heaven and new earth, no temple is seen (21.22) because the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are the temple thereof. (God and the Lamb form the center of the new city. Following the mentioning of the temple of God in 3.12 are found the words “he shall go out thence no more”, for the simple reason that God and the Lamb are the temple in the new heaven and new earth.)

(6) The Bible expressly says that there are believers who do not pass through the Great Tribulation (for example, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10).

(7) Suppose these people mentioned in 7.9 did in fact pass through the Great Tribulation of three and a half years; then they must have died at the time when the temple is trodden underfoot by the nations. But according to what is given in 11.2 it is impossible to include the church therein. So how can it be held that the multitude cited in 7.9 comes out of the Great Tribulation of three and a half years?

(8) The Great Tribulation of three years and a half spoken of in Revelation is especially related to the Jews. Both Daniel 12.1 – “And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and that time thy people shall be delivered . . . “ – and Matthew 24.16-18 depict particularly the situation of the Jewish people. God’s primary purpose is to make use of the Great Tribulation to deal with the Jews. “The time of Jacob’s trouble” spoken of in Jeremiah 30.7 manifestly points to the Jews. But in the book of Revelation reference is made to the subject of tribulation several times in connection with the church, such as in 1.9 and 2.9-10,13. According to John 16.33 tribulation seems to be the earthly portion of the church for she must pass through a prolonged duration of sufferings. Accordingly, this tribulation may also be described in the same way as Revelation 7.14 itself literally does in the Greek original, namely: “the tribulation the great”. Nevertheless, the great tribulation cited in Revelation 2.22 is very different from that of 7.14, nor is it the same as that of the three and a half years mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. (The words “through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God” in Acts 14.22 has reference to the common experience those who enter the kingdom of God will share on earth.)

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And it doesn't say they were raptured; they could have entered heaven by dying in the seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

No coulda whoulda shoulda. Noone is resurrected yet from the past 20 centuries. That occurs at the 7th trumpet just before the bowls. Even David is still waiting to be resurrrected in that place of timeless unawares where Abraham is, where the repentant thief is, so on and so forth. They all come out of the past 20 centuries as the church and the OT period too. Acts 2 on David is clear on this.

Please note that 7.9-17 narrates the period from the rapture (the first rapture) to eternity (the new heaven and the new earth). What is described in 7.15-17 depicts the same scene as found in 21.3-7.

Note also that 7.9-17 only deals with the rapture generally, not exclusively; and neither does it speak exclusively of the scene of eternal blessing. Consequently, we must not conclude that what is given here is indicative of the rapture of the whole church once and for all; for nothing is said as to how this vast multitude got there, it only states that they are there.

7.9-17 THE SCENE IN HEAVEN AFTER THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED

This section sketches for us this scene in heaven. Who is the great multitude? Though we dare not conclude definitely that this refers to the whole church, we would nevertheless say that it includes the majority of the redeemed of God; that is, it consists of those in the first rapture, plus that great number who are raised from the dead, together with the relatively small number of those who yet remain alive on earth and are changed. Here we are not shown how the church is raptured, only an outline description is given of the heavenly scene after the church is raptured. Yet how do we know that this is the scene in heaven of the raptured church? The reasons are given below.

1. The number: “a great multitude, which no man could number” (7.9). At the first rapture there cannot be such a vast number. Hence this must be a conglomeration of several raptures.

2. “Standing before the throne and before the Lamb”- Since 4.2 reads that “there was a throne set in heaven”, those who now stand before the throne here must have arrived in heaven.

3. The great tribulation spoken of in 7.14 is the same as mentioned in John 16.33. Therefore, the countless number here includes all who have been persecuted throughout the centuries: some have gone through martyrdom, many have been raised from the dead. Those who are resurrected will naturally surpass in number those at the first rapture.

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Revelation 14:1-5 refers to the 144,000 singing in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5).

These are those closest to the Lord literally virgin Christians to be raptured at first rapture both those waiting in Hades and those few alive to be raptured alive as part of the man-child harbingers and advanced parties part of the first resurrection of which more will follow from the tribulation of the past 20 centuries and the Tribulation to be also resurrected at the 7th trumpet along with the rest of the church that was left (that is not taken at first rapture).

The key - the key to understanding the firstfruits is they too have nothing any longer to be tested and so they too will be raptured alive to the throne (Rev. 7.9) at the start of Tribulation that sets off the war in heaven.

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becoming complacent about his walk with the Lord, for he never knows when he's going to die --

Yet in the Tribulation itself you will be complacent since you can count down the days and live evilly up to the last day. Therefore if such is true of being soporphic in the last days of the last week, why would not also be soporphic today. I really see no difference. You can talk to the talk by you lose that intimacy of the spirit in what you believe, for it is a defection on your part holding to taking such love of Christ away, a serious falling away of spiritual affections in hope that is not merely salvation for we already know we have salvation and eternal life and will be given new spiritual bodies. What God is seeking for you is to be part of the first resurrection a "best" "out-of" resurrection from the parousia of resurrections, for there are several raptures, at least two major ones in the Tribulation itself. This is what Paul was looking forward to, a reward for reigning with Christ in the millennium. How precious Rev. 20.4 is. How to reach your spirit with this truth is not easy for you must be able to touch life.

Today, 08:20 AM

Partrib writes:

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"All the world" in Revelation 3:10 refers to all of the Roman Empire

"Religious Rome" and "political Rome" are but a side issue of Rev. 17 and 18. Rev. 3.10 speaks not of romanism but something far greater of the consummation of this age, the last week, the Tribulation itself for this is the only way to end this dispensation. The only way. Remember 3.10 says the HOUR of trial that HOUR, not just trial we see already day to day year to year and century to century. This a very special principle. You are focused on certain words yet reject the others to make your case. Look at all the words to see where the emphasis lies. Indeed, Tribulation will come upon the whole world to.

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believers can "overcome"

Not all do while still in the body. See Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and the overcoming manchild believers (Rev. 12.5) who are birthed first at first rapture and don't forget Rev. 20.4 for not all Christians will receive this reward, of which those at first rapture at most definitely included and the martyrs are included and the saints most high are included, but not all those resurrected at 7th trumpet will receive such reward. They will be made ready and disciplined in outer darkness. Amen.

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It's okay to be looking for death first.

There is nothing wrong with death, but God's thought is greater even that death and he intends to prove it at first rapture just like Enoch and Elijah were raptured, who have never seen death, who will return as the Two Witnesses to die.

At first rapture God will show you and the world that He has power over death for ONLY those who are ready to be received, albeit only a few which is about 4 million. Of the 200 million saved or so since Adam, only 4 million will be raptured alive at first rapture. From that moment you can count down the days and live evilly up to the last day if you wish since you will know the day of return of Christ on the 1260th day of Great Tribulation on the mount of olives. Parousia commences first in a cloud by Christ at first rapture rapturing believers to the throne (Matt. 24.37,40-41, Rev. 7.9). Later on that cloud is His appearing touching down on the mount of olives. And thus we see a coming for the Saints, at first rapture, then a coming for the saints at the 7th trumpet and then about 24 months after 7th trumpet resurrection He comes with His overcoming saints to reign and the millennium starts.

I can sum up all your arguments as death death death death. That is all you ever talk about but in reality your spirit is hardened, and spiritually sensitivity is lost, because God doesn't want you to think death all the time, so you are in death by your flesh not by the spirit. You must see some aspect of rapture according never having to see death and it is a blessing not to have to go through Tribulation if you are ready but only if you ready. You are focus on death as your way out rather than first love, growing love, transforming love and maturing love by which God will literally rapture one alive before the Tribulation even starts which commences the war in heaven which is necessary to allow the millennium to come about. This has such greater depth and the meaning of the Scriptures for the focus is on overcoming and readiness and God's proof that even death is powerless, but physically and not even having to go to Hades for some like an Enoch and Elijah. We are very grateful for the story of these two men Enoch and Elijah the only two men that have never seen death in the entire Bible. They are so few which shows how speical a thing it is. Remember pretribulation onlyism is wrong.

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Matt. 16.18

Not you necessarily, but see Rev. 22.18,19, Matt. 7.21. There is a religious Rome even onto the onlyism position of pretrib onyism or post trib onlyism. See Matt. 19.16-20.16 and note these verses are not about salvation, but non-legalisms of the fact that there are overcomers in the church, and though some will receive different rewards in the millennium (rewards done away with in the new city in the new earth), like the 5 virgins or the Matt. 13 seed which do produce different and more fruit, nevertheless some will reign over 5,3,1 cities, yet in Matt. 20.1-16 we see everyone getting just one coin because God will not legalize reward. It is up to Him.

The purpose of of Matt. 16.18 is to show Satan is working in the onlyisms of the world as in your case. Let it go. Let the truth set you free.

At first rapture there will be a rapture of the matured. That is what God so loves and needs to start the Tribulation. It is quite a spectacular thing. If you are not not seeing God's will in desiring you to overcome to be received and to escape for keeping His Word of His patience, then I dare say you won't be part of the millennial reign. Post-onlyism is a form of legalism. Though it is not bad as unsaved historicalisms, and it is not as bad as pretrib onlyisms overassuming it still needs deliverance.

There is a saying Once you go post trib you never go back to pretrib and once your spirit is reached for partial you never go back to post trib. The most spiritual of men in history have gone partial because they see the flaws in post trib.

Don't be a death seeker, see the cross, and codeath and allow resurrected life, victorious life, for there is the positive aspect to God's work, not just the negative which will harden your spirit and keep your spirit insenstive to things of God if you don't allow God's transforming love to take place in your life. It is smothered if you are a death seeker only and that is where your position currently lies, just as Matt. 16.18 speaks of. You must realize that pretribbers see something you don't see, and posttribbers (yourself) see something that pretribbers don't see. But I see what you both don't see, and that is the difference and there you will find life.

Troy Brooks (Partrib)