Discussion with Matt Slick About the Image of God

Discussion at PalTalk  (this is the original copy unedited; discussion took place Aug. 9/05),

Parture: In the mood to chit chat a bit?
Matt Slick: Sure, little bit before I go back to work on CARM
Parture: I want to focus on total depravity
Parture: If one is totally deprave, this means to you that nothing of themselves can come to Christ right?
Matt Slick: Who are you?
Parture: Troy
Matt Slick: You are the guy who's been falsely accusing me, right?
Parture: I have been the person who has been speaking the truth because I want to help you.
Parture: Don't be mad.
Matt Slick: I'm not mad at all. You just don't know what you're talking about.
Matt Slick: Go ahead and ask your questions... and, do you mind if I keep this dialogue for possible use on my web site?
Parture: We are speaking together on Thursday, or is that Matt Paulson?
Parture: Yes, you can keep this dialogue
Matt Slick: Thank you. Matt Paulsen is a friend of mine who helps answer e-mails on my web site
Parture: But who is that I am meeting on Thursday?
Matt Slick: Me. I am Matt Slick, the guy, Lord willing, that you will be speaking to on Thursday 8/11/2005
Parture: Back to the question.
Parture: If one is totally deprave, this means to you that nothing of themselves can come to Christ right?
Matt Slick: Total depravity is the doctrine that sin has touched all of what a person is: heart, soul, mind, body, spirit, emotions, etc.
Parture: And that's all it means to you right?
Matt Slick: It means that the person is incapable of choosing God out of his own free will because his sinful disposition does not allow him to freely choose God.
Matt Slick: This is why God, in his great mercy, must work his regeneration in us.
Parture: If the person is made in God's image with a free-will, then does he not come to the cross by that grace of being made in God's image?
Matt Slick: Please define what free will is.
Parture: Of any tree in the garden you may freely eat, except the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Parture: This is Gen. 2.16
Matt Slick: When God told Adam that he could freely choose which tree to eat of, Adam did not have a fallen and sinful nature. He was able to make the choice and he did. Ultimately, he chose to rebel. Now, can you please tell me what free will is? We should define our terms before we argue about it.
Parture: Free-will is a sovereign will of man made in God's image, just like God's own free-will, to be under Satan or God, our choice.
Parture: Except God's will can never be under Satan, which is why God is God.
Matt Slick: You are not defining what free will is. Can you please define it?
Parture: I just defined it. Why do you think I did not define it?
Matt Slick: Let me help you. Free will is the ability to make choices. We Calvinists do not denying that unbelievers have free will.
Parture: So, why do you think I did not define it?
Matt Slick: What we say is that the Bible puts limits upon the ability of the unbeliever to freely choose God.
Matt Slick: We calvinists teach that a person is free only as far as his nature permits him to be free. Therefore, we must ask what are the limits on the unbeliever's freedom of choice according to scripture?
Parture: Yet God affords the man the choice to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Christ according to John 3.16,18, so this is not a limit, but a right
Matt Slick: You have not established your point nor have you clarified.
Parture: This right is afforded to all men made in God's image for therein grace begins and the glory of God.
Matt Slick: You are not understanding what the word says.
Parture: What point did I not establish or clarify?
Matt Slick: The Bible says of the unregenerate that he is deceitful and sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mk 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14).
Parture: what am I not understand?
Matt Slick: Please tell me how someone who is in the above condition is able to freely choose God?
Parture: The person in the above condition is able to freely choose because He is made in God's image, though he is fallen.
Parture: Man never loses the being made in God's image.
Matt Slick: We do not deny that anyone is made in the image of God. But you cannot define the image of God as something including the ability to contradict what God has already revealed. This is what you're doing.
Matt Slick: As Calvinists, we never deny that the unregenerate lost the image of God.
Matt Slick: What we are firm is what the Scriptures state. I have given you the references above that describe the inability of the unregenerate.
Matt Slick: "What we are firm" should be "quite we affirm
Matt Slick: dang.
Parture: The right man has to choose the cross to receive God's grace does not contradict what God has already revealed, but agrees with it, that though man is fallen, He can yet come to the cross.
Matt Slick: should be "what we affirm"
Matt Slick: You did not answer my question.
Parture: The unregenerate does not come to the cross of his fallen nature.
Matt Slick: If the unregenerate is deceitful and sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mk 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), how can he freely choose God?
Parture: He chooses by the right given to him in the grace and glory of God making man in His image, not by his fallen nature.
Parture: Do you understand this?
Matt Slick: Tell me how an unregenerate person who is full of evil, while the darkness, does not seek for God, is dead in his sins, and cannot understand spiritual things, freely chooses God
Matt Slick: You're not answering the question.
Matt Slick: If the unregenerate is deceitful and sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mk 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), how can he freely choose God?
Parture: He chooses by the right given to him in the grace and glory of God making man in His image, not by his fallen nature. This is the answer. Non-legalistic.
Matt Slick: Simply saying it is his right does not mean he is able to do it.
Parture: If it is his right, he may or may not do it.
Matt Slick: Simply saying he's made in God's image, does not mean he is able to do it.
Matt Slick: You had said it is his right, but you have not establish what you mean by it, nor had he established that it is indeed a right.
Matt Slick: You assume far too much... and you don't answer my question.
Matt Slick: Again,If the unregenerate is deceitful and sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mk 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), how can he freely choose God?
Parture: If it is his right, he may or may not do it. His right is established because he is made in God's image.
Matt Slick: The Bible declares a state of the unregenerate and put limits upon him. You violate those limits in your assertion that he can still freely choose God.
Matt Slick: Again, saying it is his right means nothing.
Matt Slick: You say it is his right. But I call you the Scriptures that demonstrate the inability of the unregenerate to come to God.
Matt Slick: You are not dealing with the Scriptures and the best you have to offer me is saying "it is his right".
Matt Slick: You are not dealing with the word of God.
Parture: This gives glory to God to not premake someone for salvation or hell, but He glories in allowing the man make the choice that he has a right to to make being made in His image. Saying it is his right means everything! The unregenerated man does not come to the cross of his fallen nature that you cite.
Matt Slick: Why don't you reread my question to you and please try and answer that question. Here it is again: If the unregenerate is deceitful and sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mk 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), how can he freely choose God?
Parture: He chooses God freely because He remains in God's image to so freely choose, not by his fallen nature, but by the grace of God of being made in His image. This is proper cause and effect.
Parture: correction..."He" is "he".
Matt Slick: You're not making any sense. The unregenerate has a fallen nature. The unregenerate hates God, does not seek for God, is a child of wrath, cannot understand spiritual things, etc. That is his nature.
Matt Slick: Even retaining the image of God, that image has been affected by sin.
Parture: The saved do not choose Christ by their fallen nature.
Matt Slick: I have given you the references out of God's word that describes the unregenerate condition. You have not answered my question.
Parture: The image of God is not affected by sin for the image of God is perfect.
Matt Slick: Are you saying that unbelievers have two natures: one that has fallen another one that is in the image of God?
Parture: God is perfect as would be His image
Parture: I have answered your question, God's image is not affected by the fall, for man is always remaining in God's image.
Parture: You said you believed in man remaining in God's image and then you said it is tainted. This is a contradiction.
Matt Slick: Simply stating that God's image is not affected by the fall accomplishes nothing. I am not interested in your assertions. I am interested in what the word of God says.
Matt Slick: The Bible does not define exactly what the image of God is.
Matt Slick: Since we know that God is spirit, that he does not have physical attributes, we know that the image that we are made in is not a physical one.
Parture: Our being made in God's image is not the sin nature, nor is it God's nature, for we have not yet eaten of the tree of life before regeneration.
Matt Slick: Most scholars agree that the image that is spoken of in Genesis 1:26 is dealing with the ability of humans to manifest similar attributes of God such as love, hate, worship, adoration, etc..
Matt Slick: But man has one nature: human.
Matt Slick: We are human in our nature.
Parture: The Bible does give us the definition of the image of God; for example, Gen 2:16, And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Matt Slick: Adam was made good, not perfect. He chose to rebel and since he represented all of mankind (Rom. 5), when he fell, his fallen nature was passed on to his descendents via birth.
Matt Slick: Since humans only have one nature, a human nature, and since that nature is fallen, and we say that man as a fallen nature.
Matt Slick: You cannot arbitrarily separate the "image of God" and the "fallen nature of man."
Matt Slick: What you are doing is setting up a false dichotomous situation concerning man's makeup.
Matt Slick: This false dichotomy is part of the reason you are in such great error.
Parture: Being made in God's image in His likeness is as Christ had come in the flesh, when Christ was in the likeness of the flesh. His image is according to moral characteristics.
Matt Slick: You don't know what you're talking about.
Matt Slick: Again, I'm going to ask you this question. I actually am hoping that you will deal with the Scriptures I reference and what goes Scriptures tell us about the unregenerate.
Matt Slick: If the unregenerate is deceitful and sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mk 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), how can he freely choose God?
Matt Slick: Can you please answer the question in light of the Scriptures that I've given you?
Parture: I do not arbitrary separate the image of God and the fallen. It is a fact man is made in God's image and he is fallen.
Matt Slick: You are indeed arbitrarily separating the image of God and the fallen nature of mankind.
Parture: This is not a false dichotomous view, for the Bible says man is made in God's image and man is fallen. These are facts.
Matt Slick: It said that Adam was made in the image of God. Adam sinned. We inherited his sinful nature. We inherited the image of God.
Matt Slick: There is much debate in Christian theology about what the image of God is and to quite a fact it has been influenced by the fall.
Parture: Man freely chooses God by coming to the cross as a helpless sinner having that right being made in God's image. This grace supersedes the fallen nature.
Matt Slick: You were huge mistake is to be dogmatic about something that you cannot be dogmatic about.
Matt Slick: At best, all you do is offer me a verse that says man is made in God's image and then you draw all sorts of conclusions from that are unfounded.
Matt Slick: Again, I'm going to ask you the same question
Matt Slick: If the unregenerate is deceitful and sick (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mk 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), how can he freely choose God?
Parture: Man is made in God's image and he is fallen. These do not contradict each other. God says man is made in God's image and he is fallen. Your issues is not with me, but with God.
Matt Slick: My issue is with you and your bad thinking.
Parture: The image of God is never damaged by the fall, for the image of God can never be damaged. Amen.
Matt Slick: Please do not assume you represent God.
Matt Slick: How do you know it was not damaged by the fall?
Parture: Because man is always made in God's image. That which is damaged is fallen.
Matt Slick: If it is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness (John 3:19), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20), then how is his image undamaged, unaffected?
Matt Slick: Are you saying that the "image of God" in man has its own will?
Matt Slick: Are you saying that this will is separate from the fallen nature?
Parture: There is no how, it just is. Man is always made in the image of God, though presently fallen.
Matt Slick: It seems to me that you are saying that the image of God has its own will, and the fallen nature of man also has its own will.
Parture: The image of God has free-choice, freely able to come to the cross. This free-will is not the will of the flesh, that is correct.
Parture: The will of the flesh can't accept Christ.
Matt Slick: I see. So you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that a human consists of two parts: the image of God and a fallen nature. Furthermore, the image of God in the person has its own will, and the fallen nature also has its own corrupted will. Is this correct?
Parture: The free-will made in God's image can come to the cross to receive Christ. The will of the flesh can not receive Christ, and God will not save the man by the will of the flesh. The human being being made in God's image, is fallen, but he remains still made in God's image. Amen.
Parture: The image of God is still perfect.
Matt Slick: Are you telling me that with in each individual are two wills, one of the flesh and one of the "image of God"?
Parture: This is a legalism you are trying for. Man being made in God's image has a free choice according to John 3.16,18 to come to the cross, but if he comes to the cross by the will of the flesh, then God can't save him.
Matt Slick: Buckley, legalism means that you are trying to follow the law of God in order to be saved. So, you're misapplying that word. I am only trying to understand your position. I've asked you this question if you times here, and you seem to be avoiding it.
Matt Slick: I will ask the question again, Are you telling me that with in each individual are two wills, one of the flesh and one of the "image of God"?
Matt Slick: btw, above Buckley should be Biblically.
Parture: In our cause you are legalizing, which means, you are using your head to try to circumvent the idea that salvation is a right given to all men.
Parture: A legalism is trying to be so mentally stiff like a bad lawyer.
Parture: The same answer - This is a legalism you are trying for. Man being made in God's image has a free choice according to John 3.16,18 to come to the cross, but if he comes to the cross by the will of the flesh, then God can't save him.
Parture: "In our cause", should read, "In your case".
Matt Slick: The Bible tells us to reason (Is. 1:18). There is nothing wrong with me being transformed by the renewing of my mind (Rom. 12:2). All I am doing is reading what you were telling me and attempting to clarify my understanding by asking you questions. So far, what I am understanding is that you are stating that with in each person is the image of God (with its own free will) and a fallen nature (with its own free will). This is not legalism. This is called "thinking".
Matt Slick: Obviously, I have a problem with what I've understanding that you are telling me. I think you are very confused and I think that in order for you to hold your position you have to also hold on to an erroneous view about the nature of man.
Parture: The same answer - This is a legalism you are trying for. Man being made in God's image has a free choice according to John 3.16,18 to come to the cross, but if he comes to the cross by the will of the flesh, then God can't save him.
Matt Slick: Because you have this erroneous view, you go around proclaiming that you know what the truth is, and stating that people like myself are not saved.
Parture: I am not confused I assure you.
Parture: His yoke is easy.
Parture: It is wrong to pridefully believe you are premade for salvation; that is the erroneous view. I have told you the truth.
Matt Slick: Again, let me help you out. We Calvinists do not deny that people have free will. We do not deny this at all. What we affirm, is that their free will has been affected by the fall to such an extent, that in their freedom they are not able to come to Christ on their own.
Matt Slick: Some of the Scriptures that we cite in support of this I've already listed: It is man who is deceitful (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness (John 3:19), does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).
Matt Slick: Please, let's stick to one topic at a time: free will and the image of God.
Parture: This is why none come to the cross by the will of the flesh.
Parture: The only way to come to the cross is by that right, and grace, of being made in God's image so that God can save us by saving grace.
Matt Slick: Can you please tell me whether or not you believe and teach at with and fallen man are two wills, one of "the image of God" and the other "of fallen man"? Can you please answer this question? Do you or do you not affirm this idea?
Matt Slick: "and teach at with and fallen man" should be "and teach that within fallen man"
Parture: The same answer - This is a legalism you are trying for. Man being made in God's image has a free choice according to John 3.16,18 to come to the cross, but if he comes to the cross by the will of the flesh, then God can't save him.
Matt Slick: If you say that he cannot come to God by the will of the flesh, are you saying he can come to God by the will of "the image of God" that is in him?
Parture: The answer is the same - This is a legalism you are trying for. Man being made in God's image has a free choice according to John 3.16,18 to come to the cross, but if he comes to the cross by the will of the flesh, then God can't save him.
Matt Slick: I guess we're done. You're not answering my questions and we cannot proceed.
Parture: You are not accepting the answer as expected.
Parture: The image of God is not damaged.
Matt Slick: No, that is not at. It is just that you're not making sense and I'm trying to clarify your position and you're not entry my question.
Parture: We are though fallen.
Matt Slick: I have asked you repeatedly if you hold to the idea that the "image of God" retains its own will separate from the "fallen nature" will.
Parture: It makes sense. What is it in the statement you can't understand?
Matt Slick: If I'm not understanding you correctly, simply tell me that and explain it clearly.
Parture: The answer is the same - This is a legalism you are trying for. Man being made in God's image has a free choice according to John 3.16,18 to come to the cross, but if he comes to the cross by the will of the flesh, then God can't save him.
Parture: I have repeatedly answered you the answer you need, not which you want to hear.
Parture: If you ask the same question again, when you get the same answer, then obviously something is blocking your spirit.
Matt Slick: All right, I'm done. I have been polite and patient and I have sought to clarify my understanding of your position and you have not allowed me to do this. So, it is time for me to take off. I will meet you on Thursday night for our live a voice discussion.
Parture: You were not premade for salvation, for that is evil.
Matt Slick: Goodbye.
Parture: Good bye
Parture: See you then.